Our hosts pick their favorite podcasting moments from 2022 with a variety of fun and informative guests.
Episode Transcript
Rob Pickels 00:05
Hello and welcome to Fast Talk: your source for the science of endurance performance. I’m Rob Pickels, he’s Trevor Connor, and somewhere around here is Grant Holicky.
Trevor Connor 00:14
Eh, he’s probably on his phone somewhere.
Rob Pickels 00:16
Well, Trevor, this was a good year.
Trevor Connor 00:19
Rob, this was a year you joined us back in January. So it’s been almost a year for you.
Rob Pickels 00:23
It has been, huge journey. I hope everybody’s been enjoying it along with me. I think that we had a lot of great learnings, a lot of great memories and a lot of great laughs and I think today, what we should do is round those up for our listeners.
Trevor Connor 00:36
So we are doing a “Favourites of 2022” episode. Are you ready with your clips?
Rob Pickels 00:41
I’m ready with my clips. Are you ready with yours?
Trevor Connor 00:43
I spent all weekend working on mine, I’m excited for this.
Rob Pickels 00:47
Grant, how about you?
Trevor Connor 00:48
Still on this phone.
Rob Pickels 00:49
All right, well, here we go.
Trevor Connor 00:52
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Rob Pickels 01:35
So guys, I got a funny one for us and I don’t know if this started me off on the right foot or the wrong foot but – Chris, I’m glad that you’re sitting next to me now because you were sitting next to me when this funny thing happened, and you picked up on it immediately – and that’s how Trevor introduced me to the show: using the word “filling in for Chris”.
Trevor Connor 01:58
That was a mistake that I will never live down.
Grant Holicky 02:03
And only 42 episodes later, he was back.
Rob Pickels 02:06
Believe it or not.
Chris Case 02:09
You filled in for a bit.
Rob Pickels 02:10
Well, obviously not filling in that well. So yeah, let’s listen now…
Trevor Connor 02:15
We have a final thing that we need to do before we hit our sign off, which is announce our newest hosts. We have somebody who will be filling in for Chris and Chris, would you like to make an announcement – though there is a, there’s an asterix on this – but Chris, would you like to introduce our new host?
Chris Case 02:34
This guy?
Rob Pickels 02:34
Me?
Chris Case 02:35
You’ve already been introduced, haven’t you?
Trevor Connor 02:37
Rob, it’s been two weeks.
Rob Pickels 02:40
I’m just filling in. How do you – that doesn’t match…
Chris Case 02:43
That was poor phrasing, that was poor phrasing.
Trevor Connor 02:50
Struggling to try to get within the ballpark of what Chris just –
Chris Case 02:55
Wow.
Rob Pickels 02:57
I’d say that it’d be big shoes to fill but those are like what, nine, nine and a halfs or so? You’re a size 45.
Brady Holmer 03:04
Those are bigger than mine.
Rob Pickels 03:08
Bowling balls don’t usually have feet.
Brady Holmer 03:11
You’re fortunate, no, It’s very true.
Rob Pickels 03:16
Hey, Trevor, question for you.
Trevor Connor 03:17
Yes.
Rob Pickels 03:18
Do you ever have an episode where your mind is just blown by a guest?
Trevor Connor 03:23
I’ve had many.
Rob Pickels 03:24
Well, my “I learned something” clip comes from Dr. Stacey Sims – I thought that I was kind of knowledgeable about the topics of female athletes but this conversation we had with her – Only a man would say that. I know it’s true, I think I was shown – I shown the light to tell you the truth – this conversation we had about carbohydrate and the female athlete and carbohydrate timing, for me, I 100% learned something and tried to put this into practice immediately after learning it – so props to Stacy for blowing my mind.
Brady Holmer 03:54
Basically, every time I listen or read anything by Dr. Stacey Sims, I walk away with that same mindset.
Rob Pickels 04:00
Right?
Trevor Connor 04:01
What I actually loved about that episode is we didn’t quite know how we were going to approach the episode and the episode evolved organically but really came out with a nice structure of “let’s talk about the issues that women face in their 20s, let’s talk about the issues women face in their their 30s, their 40s their 50s – and each phase ended up being a really good conversation. And every single time I was going “didn’t know that, didn’t know that” – it was quite informative. So we could pick from almost any of those.
Rob Pickels 04:30
Without question. Let’s listen now.
Issues in Women’s Training
Trevor Connor 04:32
So I’m really interested in this because – you look at sports nutrition right now, it is all about carbohydrates – like you look at the work of Dr. Yu Cando and it’s “we got to figure out how to cram more into you than your body can normally handle because the more carbohydrates you can get the better” but you’re saying that’s not necessarily what’s best for women so what would be your recommendation? You know, for example, this is great, we’re now seeing Grand Tours for women – Tour de France is going on right now, the men are cramming in as much carbohydrates as they can at the race, what would their strategy be?
Dr. Stacy Sims 05:07
So for women, it depends on the hormone profile. So if we’re looking at things like carbo-loading, we know it doesn’t work for women, primarily because in the high hormone phase after ovulation in the menstrual cycle, estrogen and progesterone’s job is to take carbohydrate and protein and shove it into the endometrial lining – so when women are like, “Oh, I’m carbo loading”, in fact, that carbohydrate is going to create glycogen stores in the endometrial lining, not in the liver and the muscle. And we look at fueling, how the body fuels during endurance exercise in that high hormone state, this is where women clear blood sugar quickly and then go into more free fatty acid and amino acid utilization. So if you’re looking at high intakes of carbohydrate during that phase, it sits in the gut, because the body’s like, I can’t handle this much. I have a slower gastric emptying rate, I’m more sensitive to carbohydrate, I can’t absorb as much, especially if it’s fructose based. So when you’re seeing girls and women who are trying to put in a lot of carbohydrate in the moment, this is where they start hitting the wall, they start getting a lot of GI distress. So we look specifically at “let’s increase total carbohydrate intake in the meals, because this is how your body is going to have more carbohydrate availability and this is how we can tap into it” – so then during exercise, you’re not going on necessarily grams of carbohydrate per hour, we’re looking more calories, how many calories – and it depends on workload, and again, the hormonal factor. So for the high hormone phase, and the calories per hour, there’s more coming from carbohydrate. If we’re in the low hormone phase, the body does tap into more liver and muscle glycogen – so you have a little bit more carbohydrate available for keeping blood glucose elevated – but we know that you go through that more rapidly. So in that particular phase, the low hormone phase, we want more carbohydrate with protein, because the default when we start getting too low on carbohydrate is to burn through amino acids, and then get into free fatty acids. So we have to understand where the woman is in her hormone profile to be able to be more prescriptive in what they need when we’re talking about the elite level. In the more age group level, it’s more of a fitness dependent. So if your body is used to using more carbohydrate, then you’re going to be okay, if you’re using that as long as you’re attenuating GI distress. But the fitter you get, the more we need to be in tune with where you are – are you on an oral contraceptive pill? Are you using an IUD? Are you naturally cycling? Are you amenorrheic? So all of these things can actually factor into what you need to use during your race or how you’re recovering, what is your fueling strategy. And we also know that nutrient timing for women is so much more important than men. And this comes from the hypothalamus reading the nutrition density and nutrition availability in women versus men.
Rob Pickels 07:52
So Trevor, this next clip is from Dr. San Milan, and I know it’s a good one because you picked it too.
Trevor Connor 07:58
We independently pick this – almost the exact same segment. Nerd alert.
Rob Pickels 08:03
So it goes. But it’s worthwhile – and this was a hugely popular episode for us, this falls into my “people have to know this” category and it was from our episode on the physiology and biomarkers of recovery. And it’s super interesting to hear Dr. San Milan talk about how things like carbohydrate restriction, or gluconeogenesis, how that changes the hormonal profile and leads to overtraining. And again, this cascade was incredible knowledge drop.
Trevor Connor 08:29
And this is probably going to be the longest clip that we put in this episode, because you put in an eight, nine minute segment and then said, “Oh, we can cut out the last couple of minutes” but I’m not going to let us cut that out because that was a big moment for me where he talks about the fact that you have athletes that get fatigued, they go to a doctor who doesn’t understand athlete physiology and goes “Oh, you have hypothyroidism” –
Rob Pickels 08:53
Yep
Trevor Connor 08:54
Puts them on medication, and it can destroy their thyroid. And that was a big moment for me because we always talk “are we really making a difference helping athletes with these episodes” – we got feedback from an athlete who said “thank you because that was happening to me, I heard your episode and I saved myself from having to be on medication the rest of my life”, right?
Rob Pickels 09:17
The hardest part with this clip was trying to just not put the entire episode in here. I was constantly looking for places to cut the clip off, but it was just – it was such gold.
Trevor Connor 09:26
Well, let’s hear now.
Physiology & Biomarkers of Recovery
Rob Pickels 09:27
Now Dr. San Milan when we’re talking about nutrition being imbalanced with the training, for you is that a general nutrition strategy? Is that carbohydrate restriction? What are we seeing from athletes that it’s causing the potential to increase the risk of overtraining?
Dr. San Milan 09:45
Yeah, that’s a great question. And I see that as a little bit of everything. But I think that if I would, were to kind of identify one element is usually carbohydrates, right? Athletes they, they don’t – many athletes, they tend to restrict carbohydrate or not having enough. We know that when you train, even at the aerobic level, right, or too, so you can, you can burn or oxidize about to 2, 1.5 to 2.5 grams per minute, right, so, yeah, that’s a lot of carbohydrates, although we normally think that this is just fat burning zones, right, but you also burn glucose, so we should not, yeah, we should remember about that. So because those days are typical days where an athlete says, “Oh, I train aerobic, I burn fat, I don’t need to eat a lot of carbohydrates” – well, well actually yeah, you burn that day, maybe 300 grams of carbohydrates or 500 grams of carbohydrates – so there, that’s right there your entire glycogen storages so this is what nutrition has to be there. And I think that carbohydrates, it’s a main problem that we see, then that’s when cyclists or, you know, athletes are getting to this vicious cycle that I call because let’s say that you didn’t think that you needed to replenish carbohydrates correctly today, but actually, you run out of glycogen storages or were low, and tomorrow, you have a big day, whether it’s intensity, or whether it’s duration, that you don’t have enough carbohydrates – so you’re going to start tapping on muscle protein, because as we know, muscle protein, different amino acids, a main one is glutamine can be utilized for energy directly into mitochondria, right? Or other gluconeogenic amino acids, like many of the branched chain amino acids can be become glucose, right? So the body has these ways to try to provide you energy. But in these situations when there’s no glycogen, yeah, it’s just like, it’s like the muscles to start eating themselves to feed themselves. And that’s where you start getting into more catabolic situation. And that anabolic to catabolic balance is disrupted. And that, that can put any athlete right there in overtraining in no time.
Rob Pickels 12:00
Yes, certainly. You mentioned that there’s a increase in energy created from protein, right, through gluconeogenesis – what other downstream effects does training with low glycogen have? Are their endocrine system changes or anything else?
Dr. San Milan 12:15
Yeah. So that’s a great point, too – so one of the things is like, yeah, that you might have some hormonal imbalances, right, and disruption – so for example, the precursor, right of protein lysis, which is protein breakdown, is cortisol. So this is one of the parameters or biomarkers that we see in athletes who have very high levels of cortisol, it’s a hormone that responds to both psychological and physiological stress so when an athlete is not mentally stressed, but you see very high levels of cortisol, that athletes, it’s breaking down more protein than normal, probably, and then you look at the anabolic side of it, which is testosterone, so you look at the ratio and many times you see athletes with very low testosterone levels, because they have to keep replenishing, replenishing the catabolic effects, right, of cortisol and lack of energy while training. So that’s where you start getting that catabolic profile of the athletes. And that takes them to a different layer, which is more inflammation, right, so the inflammation that we see, when when you have muscle breakdown, you end up with muscle microtears and muscle damage – not seen as an injury, right, but you can see muscle damage. And there are multiple research studies on these, right, for decades, with muscle biopsies, looking at disruptions in the muscle structure. But we can see this in blood analysis and biomarkers and the thing is, too is that the physiological mechanism to repair or one of the physiological mechanisms to repair muscles is inflammation, right and inflammation also brings usually water retention or liquid retention so this is one of the times also where the cyclists are, they’re trying to eat less, and then they get muscle breakdown and they get catabolic, and they end up gaining more weight and a big part of that weight is liquid, right? And they say “I gained three pounds or six pounds so… how in the world, I’m eating a lot less” – yeah, but you have inflammation, low grade inflammation, and particularly in the Boulder area, as we know, people tend to be really hardcore when it comes to nutrition and training and we see a lot of people with muscle damage and – especially in the age groupers right, that’s something that caught my attention, people in their 40s, 50s, 60s they have a lot of muscle damage chronically and we still don’t know what the consequences could be about this because normally, historically we haven’t seen this, this is the first time in humans where we see people in their 60s, 70s, training and doing marathons at the regular pace, right, but they have low grade chronic inflammation now. We know from medical research and epimeiological studies that chronic low grade inflammation can lead to multiple diseases – so this is an area where I’m particularly concerned. And then the other endocrine responses that we see is like a thyroid function – so we know that, this is the thing like I used to see before coming to Colorado, especially maybe one people a year are diagnosed with hyperthyroidism. Now in Colorado, you see – and in other places in the country, sure, I’m just – you know, because we’re in Colorado, we, we see hardcore athletes all the time, right, but I, I’ve been seeing once a week, and immense majority of these people, they do not have hyperthyroidism. And the explanation is these days, they’re really tired, really to take for months, and they’re dragging their feet, and they’re finally go to their doctors, and they do a blood analysis and part of the regular panels that are done of chemistry panels is TSH, which is cheap to do and then TSH shows it’s a little bit elevated, but in the low high end right of TSH – and so therefore, the doctor says, “Okay, there’s like, chronic fatigue, which is a sign of hypothyroidism and their high levels of TSH. Bingo”. So that athlete in many patients leaves that doctor’s office with a prescription for thyroid medication. And when you have her on medication, that you typically – people start using maybe 50 micro-, or 25 to 50 micrograms, and they’re start feeling good, but it’s artificial. It’s like if you’re tired and fatigued and you have a gallon of coffee, you’re going to feel good, but eventually you’re going to develop resistance. And this is where many of these people, they they start with 50 micrograms, 75, 100, 125, and when they get to those levels, the thyroid function is gone. And there’s nothing you can do so they have to be on that medication for the rest of their lives, where they never needed to be on that medication in the first place. So one of the things that I’ve been trying to do at the School of Medicine and trying to talk to several endocrinologists working with fire areas, right, if like, whenever you see someone with that profiles, who’s an athlete or active individual who is chronically fatigued and tired, and slightly elevated TSH levels, please do more further analysis. Looking at T3, T4 antibodies, you know that, they really can give you the whole picture. And the majority of the cases they do not have hypothyroidism. So anyway, this is another potential disruption in the endocrine system where TSH produces a little bit more than normal, and any my fullview thinking that you find you have hypothyroidism, which you don’t have.
Grant Holicky 17:39
So I’m a big fan of me. And so, you know, my favorite clip of the year is gonna be one with me in it.
Rob Pickels 17:46
That you begged us to let you come on the show if I rememeber right.
Grant Holicky 17:51
I don’t know about that.
Rob Pickels 17:51
That’s how – that’s how it went.
Grant Holicky 17:51
Is that how you remember it?
Rob Pickels 17:53
That’s how I remember it.
Grant Holicky 17:54
That’s fair. I remember it with Trevor on his knees asking me to come be on the show. But it’s neither here nor there –
Trevor Connor 18:01
That checks out.
Grant Holicky 18:01
– and it’s kind of, it’s kind of irrelevant.
Rob Pickels 18:03
You know who it was – I think it was the fans that begged for you to come on the show.
Grant Holicky 18:07
If that’s even remotely true. I’m blown away and honored but I don’t know that that’s true, either.
Rob Pickels 18:13
Well, I will say the potlucks that we’re getting out here, Grant, they’ve been pretty well received. We’ve gotten a lot of great feedback. And I am going to attribute that to you.
Grant Holicky 18:22
Well, I will say, if nothing else, as evidenced in this clip, there is just a massive amount of knowledge that’s put out there in the potlucks.
Rob Pickels 18:32
No, there’s not.
Grant Holicky 18:34
No.
Rob Pickels 18:34
Don’t even – don’t even joke about that.
Trevor Connor 18:35
So, what is this clip? Give us the context.
Grant Holicky 18:38
This is the very beginning of the very first potluck.
Rob Pickels 18:42
Can I just say that this throw to the potluck is pretty much like a potluck episode in itself?
Grant Holicky 18:46
Yeah, probably is.
Trevor Connor 18:47
Which is probably from – so can I give you my thought process?
Grant Holicky 18:51
I’d love to hear that.
Trevor Connor 18:52
When this started – the first potluck – many years ago, when the first Jackass movie ever came out, I’d read the reviews because I was really interested in what are the reviews going to be? And my favorite review of all time of a movie was somebody said “this movie might very well represent the start of the end of Western civilization”. And I was going to these potlucks going “what is this going to be like”, “where are we going to go” – we hadn’t figured out the format yet – we started this, we did this first three minutes and I went “this is the start of the end”.
Grant Holicky 19:27
This is – so essentially what you’re saying is that you could put my face on Fonzie’s face when he was jumping the shark…
Trevor Connor 19:35
Yes, this clip is our “we jumped the shark”.
Grant Holicky 19:38
Alright, so let’s go to it – this is Fast Talk “jumping the shark”.
Trevor Connor 19:43
We have Grant Holicky who can’t stop playing with his phone.
Grant Holicky 19:46
It’s just nice to be here but you know unfortunately, you guys aren’t the most entertaining people in the world all the time so I have to entertain myself with the phone.
Rob Pickels 19:49
Yeah, I’m sure our listeners are looking at their phones too while we’re talking so –
Grant Holicky 19:58
Well, Pickels, spend some much time talking about his own breakfast. I don’t need to hear about your breakfast.
Rob Pickels 20:03
Hey, man, listen, when we got to do a soundcheck in the morning, I like to talk about what I had for breakfast.
Grant Holicky 20:08
And we’re back to the latte.
Rob Pickels 20:09
Back to the latte.
Grant Holicky 20:10
Thanks. And I’m happy to be here, Trevor, we appreciate it.
Trevor Connor 20:14
I want to – I want to go to the Holicky household so I can see you yelling at your kids for playing on their phone at dinner and be like, “ahaa!”.
Rob Pickels 20:20
Yeah, and real quick – can I point out that this morning for breakfast Grant had toast with almond bread?
Grant Holicky 20:26
Yeah, I had toast with toast.
Rob Pickels 20:28
Yeah, it was a toast sandwich. I think I’m picturing this as a piece of toast, a piece of raw bread and another piece of toast.
Grant Holicky 20:33
Yeah, I’m anti paleo.
Trevor Connor 20:37
Yeah, that is truely about as un-paleo as you can possibly get.
Grant Holicky 20:42
I tend to do that. I sit there in the morning, I try to think of what would be paleo and then I go the opposite direction.
Trevor Connor 20:48
You need to get like some gluten spread, to just put on top of the toast. It’s like that that Seinfeld episode where he orders Chinese food and goes “extra MSG”. That’s me – “can we put some gluten on that?”
Rob Pickels 21:03
What would the closest thing to gluten spread be?
Trevor Connor 21:06
I don’t even know how you would make that. I actually want to know like if you could separate gluten and turn it into a paste, what that would taste like?
Rob Pickels 21:13
Next episode.
Grant Holicky 21:15
All right, wheat paste episode. Yeah. Oh, man.
Sequencing Before a Race
Trevor Connor 21:17
Okay, so this next clip is from Episode 213 with Neil Henderson – a little bit of story – so Chris will remember this. This was an episode about the four days before a big event and what you don’t know is Chris and I recorded an entire episode with a another guest on this topic that was – not going to give names or anything else – ended up being a very strange episode.
Chris Case 21:42
Yeah, I think there were a lot of valuable insights in the episode but there were some – it was just a weird dynamic. And ultimately, he or she asked us not to run the episode. So we – you guys did it again, which is great.
Trevor Connor 21:56
Right and that was how I left it, there were so many good practical pieces of advice on that I was kind of disappointed in that.
Chris Case 22:02
Yeah.
Trevor Connor 22:03
But we brought in Neal and I gotta say, Neal hit a homerun on this. It was such a good episode on things you can do and I was struggling actually to find the clip but what I loved was he talked about sequencing, that you sequence out those four days. And one of the most important reasons to do that is if you don’t fill your time right before a big event, you get nervous. So even if part of your sequences just go see a movie –
Chris Case 22:31
Right, map it out, preoccupy your mind so you’re not fretting.
Trevor Connor 22:35
Alright, let’s hear what he has to say. And you talked to us right before we went on there, I think you called it your – your sequence?
Neal Henderson 22:42
Yeah, sequencing.
Trevor Connor 22:44
So tell us a little bit about this. So you create a whole plan for those final days for your athletes?
Neal Henderson 22:49
Yep. So the planning is really about helping an athlete be prepared, both physically and mentally. And so the sequencing is a series of training sessions, but also other elements that we put into that schedule to take up some of that time that would normally be spent training. So a great example of this actually, with Rowan Dennis for – is our record. We went to a matinee movie one day, it was half an hour away from where we were staying, the movie itself was over two hours long, half an hour drive back. So that took three plus hours of time in the middle of day on what was scheduled to be a rest day so that he wasn’t just thinking about that. Because the one thing that often happens when you don’t have a plan to do something else with your time is you fill it sometimes with just spinning your wheels in your head and thinking too much and getting in your head if you don’t have really good foundation of mental training that you’ve been doing. And then you start to go into that place – oh my gosh, you can be in trouble – and some of that might be an elevation, an escalation of your energy inappropriately in the days leading up to it, which means then you’re kind of empty on race day, I’ve seen that coaching collegiate athletes a lot of times we would, when I was coaching the CU triathlon team, we would go out to California for the National Championships, which were there every year at the Wildflower triathlon, we’d have athletes, you know, we’d be leaving on Thursday, and they were already at, you know, 10 out of 10 level, and they dialed it up over the next few days on the drive out there, they get there. And then by the day before the race, they’re coming off a high because they’ve just been so jacked, and they didn’t, they didn’t manage that energy. And on race day, they were just flat because they literally had just been running that psychological side at maximum for days, and then had nothing left when it really mattered. So sequencing is about having certain things that you’re doing in training, but also making sure that you’re addressing all the rest of the non training time and making sure that there’s attention being paid to that and discuss not just letting it up to chance.
Trevor Connor 24:53
So is this something that you write out? Is this a plan that you create for each athlete?
Neal Henderson 24:57
Yeah, so, in a training schedule, there’s certain components that “we’re going to practice this” in advance of that, you know, let’s call it an A race, you know, very high important race, whether it’s a National Championship or a qualifying event, we’re going to go through this process typically a couple times in the lead up to that, starting many months out. And one of the best ways to do that is when you’re doing some of your testing type efforts, just to see where your fitness is at, if it’s kind of a, you know, power testing day that you’re going to be doing, I will actually use the same sequence in the last three, four or five days that they’re going to use in their competition. And taking into account like when the travel days might be – so in some cases, you know, you can just train, you know, you travel three days, you know, three days before it, you do opener, and then race. That’s a kind of typical standard, if you’re only traveling a couple hours, if you have a longer travel, it might be happening five days out is that travel day, and so we might take that day completely off, and then think about, okay, riding easy, and then doing some openers and again having basically a schedule for that relative to actually what that travel schedule looks like – if you’re doing big international travel, ideally, you want to have that scheduled earlier but very often, it’s just a matter of what’s available, flights or what you know, what the timing of things is, whatever events you’ve got going on or work responsibilities that you can’t leave until this point or family and so you may not be working in the ideal situation. But if you run through that consistent type of schedule in those days, you have a familiarity with it. And so there’s not an absolute rigidity, but there’s some consistency.
Trevor Connor 26:38
And then what we might do is throw in a short clip of Neal pulled out his bag and we couldn’t not make fun of him for that.
Grant Holicky 26:45
Oh Neal’s low hanging fruit.
Rob Pickels 26:50
He did tee it up for us without question.
Grant Holicky 26:52
Rob and I’ve spent enough time around Neal to know –
Rob Pickels 26:56
One of my favorite people in the whole world.
Grant Holicky 26:58
Absolutely. One of the – I’ve learned some of the most I’ve learned as a coach from Neal, but making fun of Neal’s kind of like making fun of Trevor. It’s pretty easy to do.
Trevor Connor 27:10
I thought I was prepared when I saw what Neal kept in his bag.
Rob Pickels 27:13
You don’t know prepared, which is why Neal, which is why Neal was such a great episode. A great, great contributor, a great guest. That’s why Neal was so great for this episode.
Grant Holicky 27:22
Yes.
Trevor Connor 27:22
I don’t know if any of you guys have seen Harry Potter but they have in Harry Potter where they have a little bag and then they pull like a car out of it and pull things that are much bigger than the bag. I was waiting for Neal to do that. I was waiting for Neal to pull entire bicycle –
Grant Holicky 27:35
Airbike, airbags, rear wheel,
Trevor Connor 27:37
– out of that backpack. Neal pulled a bag, a smaller bag out of the bag that he came with that had race food, various painkillers and…
Neal Henderson 27:50
No, no pain –
Trevor Connor 27:52
Benadryl? Okay, yes.
Neal Henderson 27:56
We have Sudafed in case you have a sinus issue when you’re on a plane. Those kinds of headaches are the worst.
Trevor Connor 28:02
They are bad.
Neal Henderson 28:03
And well, we got Emergen-C. You know.
Rob Pickels 28:07
We got some food.
Trevor Connor 28:09
A bar.
Neal Henderson 28:10
We got a bag of almonds. We’ve got earplugs and in case you forget your headphones or you have a snoring roommate when you room with people you don’t know, you’re often gonna need those. We got some hand sanitizer. We got Imodium if you have a bad GI issue. That’s the other thing there. We have a packet of oatmeal. We have some lip balm, again, very dry. Have a toothbrush and toothpaste in there. Have some tissues, and most importantly, a small packet of Cholula.
Rob Pickels 28:38
Which can do anything for you. It can probably sanitize your water. If you’re drinking –
Neal Henderson 28:44
It’ll put you in a good headspace too. If you had bland food and you need to spice it up, you go to that Cholula – it’s like bam, I’m ready for anything.
Trevor Connor 28:51
All I can say is we have picked the perfect person for this episode. Because there, right there is his like prep for anything –
Rob Pickels 29:01
Being ready.
Neal Henderson 29:02
Yeah, and that backpack goes with me everywhere – when people pick it up, they’re like, what do you have in there? I’m like, it’s what I don’t have in there and it’s nothing. I don’t not have anything. I have everything I need to exist for at least a week in a foreign land in money, coins, bills, all kinds of currency. I’m ready.
Chris Case 29:25
Alter exploration is a new custom cycling tour company created by me, Fast Talk Labs co-founder Chris Case. Alter Exploration crafts, challenging, transformative cycling journeys in some of the world’s most stunning destinations. Alter’s trips aren’t so much a vacation as an exploration of the destination and of yourself. At the end of every day, be preoccupied as much by the transformative experience, as by the satisfaction of exhaustion, reach a greater understanding of your physical and mental capabilities, while simultaneously experiencing a jaw dropping landscape.e. Life. Altered. Learn more about my favorite adventure destinations and start dreaming at Alter exploration.com.
Taking a Day Off
Trevor Connor 30:11
Okay, this next one is from a really recent episode. This is actually from Dr. Stephen Seiler show. This is his third episode where he brought in a very high level European coach, who develops World Tour athletes, and I’m gonna apologize profusely – when I read the intro for that episode a month ago, I listened to Dr. Seiler say the name and then I spent five minutes practicing it and have forgottenn everything.
Rob Pickels 30:39
Trevor, don’t apologize. Just own it. Just get it out there.
Chris Case 30:43
It’s a Norwegian name, isn’t it?
Trevor Connor 30:44
I know it doesn’t sound anything like it looks. So it is Espen Aareskjold.
Chris Case 30:52
Perfect.
Trevor Connor 30:53
We’ll go with that and my apologies. What I loved about this episode was you heard the physiologist, the person who has formalized this polarized training concept, talking to a coach who comes completely from the world of experience, very experienced coach, and listen to him talk about how he coaches his athletes and what you hear is all these principles that Dr. Seiler has put into his research being applied. And you hear that pure application side, which was just fascinating to me. So it was a really interesting episode to listen to.
Chris Case 31:32
Check it out.
Dr. Stephen Seiler 31:34
That’s where that urgency versus patience comes in because, you know, it’s easy to think, oh, man, my threshold is 320 and I need it to be at 380, that’s a pretty damn big jump. And it’s not going to happen in one season. And I guess, you know, how do you – what’s the timeframe and maybe even Masters can learn from that – the patience aspect of it?
Espen Aareskjold 31:56
Yeah, I think a good rule of thumb is, the lower the wattage, the power, the longer it takes to develop. So it’s easy to develop spread power or around threshold, or 30 seconds or all that comes fast and goes faster away. But the foundation work that there – quite some time. But I also think that one of the main things that we are talking about is that when we expose the riders for workouts, they have to be in balance. So if you imagine that you have a battery at 100% and you go to do a session, then it’s probably easier for to start, session is still hard, but then if you start the morning with low sleep, and kids who have been crying all night, which I actually have riders on the team that have kids, and sometimes the sleep quality is not good enough. So then we have need to have made this person to overcommit because there’s no plan that’s so important that if you feel bad today that you should just do it to do it. So if your battery is at 80%, then there will also be a relative effect. So it’s all about adjusting to where you are at any given time. And on progress, you will you will see more over weeks and months than from a day to day basis.
Dr. Stephen Seiler 33:24
Oh man, there’s, there’s no athlete that doesn’t relate to this, to the things you’re talking about now, which is that life happens and there’s day to days stressors. So when that athlete is scheduled to do a workout, a hard session, but everything tells you that they’re not ready for it, or they’re compromised at some level, whether it’s their 80% of 100, you know, so what is your typical rule of thumb? Is it better for them to do a reduced version of that hard workout? Or do you say no, we just go easy today? Or do you give them rest day? I mean, on that continuum? How do you solve that adjustment issue?
Espen Aareskjold 34:10
I’m going to start by saying what you research guys says, so your scientist, it depends.
Dr. Stephen Seiler 34:15
It depends. Dang it.
Espen Aareskjold 34:19
Yeah, no, no, but it really does. I think you have to look at the courses, you have to look at the total volume that you had coming up to the session, you have to figure out is there any illnesses upcoming and you have to look at the days to come. But most of the time, I’m just saying, take a day off, enjoy it. You’re not gonna – you’re not going to get many of those and to like reduce the, like the mental stress of not having done a workout and if you – as you taught me – if you’re going to have a 5% increase during a half a year or a year. How much better do you need to be in each workout? That’s not much. I think it’s, we don’t need to have a lot of those workouts. But if they happen seldom, then it’s okay. If not, we have to look at the training program, the practice of activities, or the daily life, sleep, attrition. Are there any quarrels with their spouses, and their problems with children, etc, etc, because you have the training stress, and then you also have the cognitive stress and it’s the sum of those who create the total stress. And if you have a lot of bad things on your mouth, mind, something that you worry about, then you will go throughout the day and the night and everything to reduce yourself. So your batteries, maybe at 60%, then it’s maybe, maybe it’s best thing is to go to and do something you like and forget, go to training, be your friends, go see a movie, go to a pub or whatever.
Dr. Stephen Seiler 36:00
But it’s remarkable, even though a lot of our athletes that we work with will train 500 times in a year, 600 some of them in some sports, they will be so afraid of taking a day off. How do you manage that fear? The fear of you know, that I’m missing something that someone else that I’m competing against is getting? Because they’re not taking this day off?
Espen Aareskjold 36:25
That’s a good question. I think I think some of the times I just say maybe it’s my fault, because I put the training program that’s too ambitious. And then other times, the cost is quite clear, is back to just putting things into perspective, if we have a workout or a training session that’s going to be planned to increase your vO2 max, then we know you need to be – have a status be being like, also in a state of mind, could dig deep enough, because those sessions are really hard. Another thing that we use a lot is we spoke scale – so for instance, if I can take a vO2 max session, then I say with the first interval, then you should probably reach 15 on box day.
Trevor Connor 37:16
Okay, so this clip, I titled it “truly practical advice”. This is an episode that we did with Lauren Vallee about cross training. So it’s about cyclists running and runners getting on the bike. And something that, you know, we often sit down and evaluate our episodes how that go and quite often we make the comment, we threw a ton of science in there, we brought in a lot of concepts. We didn’t get nearly enough practical advice. What was fun about this episode was this episode was just a giant “let’s give tons and tons of practical stuff” and she got to here is what cyclists should be doing when they run and why cyclists tend to run wrong. And we were doing this right when I was getting into my month of running. And I started applying what she did.
Chris Case 38:04
Must love running!
Trevor Connor 38:07
I started applying what she recommended, and wow, it made a difference. So this was, I learned something, this was great practical advice.
Chris Case 38:15
Was it a month of running previously because you were doing it wrong and now you could turn it into maybe two or three months of running?
Rob Pickels 38:22
Trevor’s a runner now believe it or not.
Trevor Connor 38:24
Periodically.
Rob Pickels 38:24
You heard it here first.
Trevor Connor 38:25
Because of her I am now faster than an 11 minute mile.
Chris Case 38:28
Sweet.
Rob Pickels 38:29
Oooh.
Chris Case 38:29
Nice work.
Trevor Connor 38:30
And I think I can – what? – walk a 10 minute mile?
Chris Case 38:33
My six year old child run an eight minute mile the other day.
Trevor Connor 38:36
Yeah, I haven’t done that yet this year.
Grant Holicky 38:38
Your six minute child is –
Chris Case 38:39
Six minute child? You’re thinking about six minute abs, bud…
Grant Holicky 38:44
Okay, I’m sorry, your six year old –
Chris Case 38:46
Eight year old?
Grant Holicky 38:47
Six minute, whatever. Anyway, in all seriousness, this topic of runners riding and riders running is something that that I really enjoy. And I’ll try to put into the training for a lot of my cyclists that have them run.
Rob Pickels 39:01
That’s because your cyclists are cyclocross racers.
Grant Holicky 39:03
I’m talking about my road guys too.
Rob Pickels 39:05
They’re the same people.
Grant Holicky 39:06
No, I’m talking about guys that don’t get all dirty. Yeah, they don’t get dirty.
Rob Pickels 39:11
They don’t get dirty.
Grant Holicky 39:12
So this is really informative and really helpful.
Trevor Connor 39:14
Right, let’s hear it now.
When Cyclists Run
Lauren Vallee 39:16
I think you hit the nail on the head in terms of why a cyclist might run. And so when a cyclist is thinking about incorporating running into their program, a couple of things stand out. Biomechanically, when one rides a bike, you’re in hip flexion. And when we’re running, you’re creating power through hip extension. And that is not typically a movement pattern that if you’re only cycling that you are used to except when you’re walking. And so the first thing is, a cyclist wants to understand that I may have this big aerobic engine, and when I go to run, I am learning a new skill. Running as a sport, it seems quite simple, you just need running shoes, but there are things to think about. So I’ll start with that hip flexion position where you’re creating power on the bike. And why it’s important to understand cognitively what’s happening when you’re running is run speed is a function of stride length and turnover, or cadence. And in order to increase stride length to go faster, a lot of cyclists will kick their leg out in front of them, because they’re used to being in hip flexion. And they don’t have that great range of motion to actually extend their leg behind them and drive their leg back using their glute and firing in that position. So it may be that if you’re a cyclist and starting to run, I would encourage you to start with, if you can aim for, you know, 90 strides, single foot strides per minute – that’s great. And I can walk you through how you actually count that but watches like Garmins will tell you approximately what your turnover is, but taking short, choppy steps in the beginning and running pretty light is going to be important for two reasons: what I just said about hip extension and developing the range of motion that you’re going to need and the second is developing the resilience and durability in the tendons and the ligaments of your body as you’re starting to run whereas we don’t have the same strain on your body when you’re cycling.
Trevor Connor 41:12
So yeah, actually, that’s really interesting, I want to ask you more about that. So I can tell you as a cyclist who, in the offseason, always puts on the running shoes, I always end up getting a lot of pain in my Achilles and I can tell you, I am a – I guess what you’d call a foot dragger – I don’t really lift my feet off the ground, I just kind of shuffle run. What should I or any cyclist like me, how should we improve that? What should we be focusing on as we run?
Lauren Vallee 41:41
So there’s nothing wrong with shuffling. And actually, if you’re using running just as a supplement to get some more cardiovascular training, some variety – it’s not a problem necessarily to shuffle. Actually, a lot of triathletes, even top triathletes who are running off the bike, do something called an Ironman shuffle, their feet stay quite low. They’re not like track runners where their knees are driving straight forward really high, and they have this high heel recovery. And so the first thing I would say is, you may just need to work on short bouts of hard running, possibly uphill.
Rob Pickels 42:18
So when I was looking through clips for this episode, I had different themes, I had funny, and this one, this one’s informative. I think this entire episode, this was Trevor, if you remember the recording with Dr. Kenefick, it was 221 on dehydration. This whole episode was about a giant knowledge bomb. And in this one, you know Dr. Kenefick is talking about how hydration or dehydration is going to affect performance. But for me, what was interesting was the entire cascade of things that are happening throughout this, I thought was really informative and people should know it.
Fluid Replacement
Trevor Connor 42:50
Well, let’s hear now. Are there general recommendations that you have for athletes in terms of fluid replacement based on sweat loss, and I’m thinking in particular, you recently just published a study where you were saying, to prevent dehydration, you generally need to replace about 37 to 54% of your sweat rate. But I found really interest is, and this was in runners, you pointed out that under an hour of activity, you might not need to replace anything at all.
Dr. Robert Kenefick 43:19
Yeah and then that gets back into that situation I was describing earlier of you know, it depends. So one of the ideas when we start talking about sweating, and that sweating relationship, the fluid loss and dehydration is its impact on performance. And if we have to draw a line in the sand, and there’s people who don’t agree with us, and that’s and that’s fine but we just have to draw a line in the sand and look into the literature. When we talk about a 2% loss, 2% dehydration, and that’s relative to your body weight, so if you were to lose 2% of your body weight through sweat, sweating, so measure, weigh yourself and then exercise for an hour, weigh yourself again, if you haven’t taken anything, any fluid or food during that time, you can just do the math and you can calculate what your sweat rate was in that hour. How much did you lose? You know, did I lose, you know, half a litre or a litre and whatever that is. And so that can give an idea to athletes to say I understand what my sweat rate is, that sweat rate can change – I mentioned acclimatization, does it become acclimatized or acclimated, I actually will probably, I will sweat more of my sweat will become more hypertonic, I’ll conserve more sodium, but I’ll lose more sweat, I’m more able – I’ll sweat earlier and activity. I’ll sweat more profusely. So my water, my fluid needs are going to be greater. So one of the things that I would say my colleague, Sam Shabbat, who writes quite often with me, one of the things that we would say for individuals who are serious about performance, that they need to understand this idea of when they’re going to be approaching this 2% loss because that’s where performance is going to start to become altered. And if you can maintain your fluid balance such that you’re not approaching that 2%, then you should be okay, at least as far as performance goes. And you know, there, I’ve mentioned this before, there are downstream effects to becoming dehydrated to sweating. Now, as your blood volume becomes less, and you become hypovolemic, there are cardiovascular adaptations that happen as well. And some of those, like an increase heart rate, can also play a role on performance. It also plays a role on perception through ratings of perceived exertion, how hard do I feel I’m work. So all of these things should be taken into account. Activities, like you’ve mentioned, for an hour, you probably won’t approach 2% loss, because the duration just isn’t long enough. And for most individuals, it’s just not intense enough for you to generate that much heat when you lose 2% in that period of time. It could be possible for very, very large individuals who are no, no, I don’t want to say this and say, Well, geez, you know, people who are blind men are playing football in the south. And you know, in August, wearing all that equipment, you know, those individuals might be able to do that, for the most part, or any activities, it’s possible, you wouldn’t need to drink at all, during an event of an hour or less, because you won’t approach 2% loss, for the most part. When you are going to do activities – so you’re going to compete, and you are going to approach that 2% loss or you’ve calculated and figured out, how much do I sweat? I believe it’s important for individuals to have a plan, how am I going to think about fluid intake, to attenuate my losses such that I don’t cross that 2% mark. So an example for myself in 2012, I was running quite a bit, and I want to one of my goals was to qualify for the Boston Marathon. And I sweat a lot. And I knew my sweat rate at the time. And I knew that for my circumstance, I had failed on a number of longer runs half marathons, approaching marathon distances. Because I was becoming too dehydrated, I couldn’t drink enough to offset how much I was sweating, I was approaching that 2%, going over that 2% line, not having enough fluid, and that affected my performance such that I couldn’t qualify. So what I needed to do is to determine circumstances under which I wouldn’t sweat so much. And that would have to be a cooler environment. So I wind up finding the race in December, and going to that race because it was so cool. I wouldn’t have to thermoradiate as much, I wouldn’t lose as much fluid, in still having a plan to drink in order to attenuate the fluid losses so my performance would be less affected. So I would say that those circumstances when you’re looking at longer activities, now we’re talking endurance activities, could be cycling, could be running could be adventure racing, any of these types of activities that are going on for those longer periods of time, you do need to start thinking about, Okay, how much fluid could I particularly lose in this event if I know my sweat rate? How much do I really need to be thinking I’m taking in – those circumstances too it’s important to have fluid that is not hypotonic – so fluid that has an electrolyte in it. The other thing we haven’t really mentioned is drinking in too much fluid and the dangers of hyponatremia so situations where people lose an appreciable amount of sodium, we see this a lot in longer, longer duration events, their training scenarios in the military. And then people drink that just water, there’s no – that’s why we call it hypotonic fluid intake, and that actually dilutes your sodium in your plasma. And that can have serious detrimental effects to the nervous system. It can cause seizures, it can cause death. And so that’s very, very serious. So there’s another idea, you know, you need to understand if you’re in these events, and you are losing sodium because it’s, you know, it’s going on for so long, again, you need to be planning okay, what should I be drinking? Or what should I be eating so that I am not putting myself at risk for hyponatremia by drinking just plain water and putting myself at risk.
Trevor Connor 49:10
Okay, so my next one is our episode with Dr. Bent Ronnestad. Rob and I can both tell you this is one of the premier researchers, pure “let’s get some studies and do some really good exercise physiology research” – we’re always excited to read his stuff.
Rob Pickels 49:28
And I’m proud to say, this was his first podcast recording ever.
Trevor Connor 49:32
Right and we almost kind of bullied him to come on the show because he – English is not his first language. He was concerned. But we got him on and that was really exciting to us.
Chris Case 49:41
Probably mentioned his name 100 times on the show.
Trevor Connor 49:44
Yeah, we have.
Chris Case 49:44
Yeah.
Trevor Connor 49:45
There was a bunch that we could have picked in this episode but what I found really fun about the clip you’re about to listen to, is A) you hear a little bit of that researcher, he talks about some of the history research, how they come up with these concepts, but then what’s fun is he goes into one of his first studies as a PhD student, and goes into the “well, they wanted me to study the athletes doing three hour rides, but I had to be the one in the room while they’re doing the three hour ride so I really tried to push for a two hour ride”. So you hear one of the preeminent researchers basically saying, I wanted to be lazy.
Chris Case 50:23
Let’s listen now.
Enhancing Performance with Strength Training
Bent Ronnestad 50:25
Yeah, so it seems to me that there is a potential to increase your cycling performance by adding strength training.
Trevor Connor 50:34
So I know there was some research earlier on 80s and 90s, that looked at whether strength training could help endurance athletes, and had concluded it really doesn’t because they were studying vO2 max and economy and it doesn’t seem like strength training will help vO2 max, there’s mixed results on economy. So I guess my question to you and this is what I found really interesting in your research is where are the benefits? How does strength training help endurance athletes?
Bent Ronnestad 51:03
Yeah, probably, it’s – we have the determining factors for endurance performance and probably that it seems like there is a small benefit on different places that ultimately adds up, making the performance better in my point of view, so, take for instance, the work economy, cycling economy measurements. As I read the literature, there is indications that when you are untrained or moderately trained, that you see an improved cycling economy, when re measuring it like the traditional way, by doing like five minutes submaximal exercise bouts below threshold, and you are in quite fresh state. There is indications that work economy measure this way can be improved. What we have done in some of our studies we have prolonged this submaximal measurements and in my first study, which was a part of my PhD, we had the ride cycling for three hours at low intensity and then in the last hour of those three hours, we saw an improved economy, which we did not see in the beginning, in the fresh state. And we finalized those three hours of submaximal riding with a five minute all-out performance test, that’s where they should have as high mean power output as possible. And then we saw that strength training group, which improved their economy during the last hour or those three hours submaximal riding had quite large improvement in five minute power compared to the control group. So maybe then you have to induce some sort of fatigue, in order to see the benefits of the strength training in terms of the cycling economy, which then might have saved energy for the last five minute bouts of that test.
Rob Pickels 52:57
We’d love to talk to you about that research protocol because, you know, as you pointed out the traditional way of measuring the economy, we didn’t really see any improvement there. And that seems to be how most people would fall back to the laboratory based measurement. What inspired you – did you have any insight into the fact that strength training might improve during longer durations? Why did you choose to do this sort of longer thing? And I love that you did because I think that that’s very relevant for people who are out on the road.
Bent Ronnestad 53:28
Yeah, and that thing you’re mentioning there is one factor because we know that in, especially the road cycling, that cyclists are cycling for many hours and if they are just sitting in the peloton and waiting to go, the final push towards the end of the race – so one part of our choice was to imitate real competitions. And then, of course, we had in back of our head, potential mechanisms why strength training could in theory improve performance and also work economy. And some of those are maybe easier to detect in a more fatigued state than in the fresh state, and then we had a discussion, actually, whether it should be two or three hours submaximal cycling, and I was the PhD student who are supposed to do all the work so I tried to argue carefully, that two hours might be enough. But then I had some supervisors and there is a reason why you have some supervisors so then they argue that the three hours should be good. So of course we went for three hours and afterwards, I do not regret that choice.
Dede Barry 54:47
Hey, listeners, it’s Dede Barry. Julie and I are launching our fresh new series this January that focuses 100% on the female endurance athlete. As we bring in the new year, our hope is to empower coaches and athletes with this cutting edge science based information that’s all about the female athlete. We’ll be covering topics like performance, nutrition, youth athletic development, and training throughout pregnancy. We look forward to sharing this rich and enlightening information with you.
Trevor Connor 55:16
All right, so let’s finish out our favorite episodes. We have to finish with this. Chris, you actually were here for part of 2022. So can you explain this one a little bit?
Chris Case 55:28
The episode or the fact that it was riddled with –
Rob Pickels 55:31
Well, I can explain it. Chris stopped caring.
Chris Case 55:34
I just wanted to leave people with a gem. You know, I wanted to go out with a blaze of glory.
Rob Pickels 55:40
Show his true self.
Chris Case 55:41
It certainly wasn’t planned.
Trevor Connor 55:43
Can I give a little backstory – because I’ve always interested this was part of it. So you might not know this, I don’t particularly like to swear. I very rarely swear. So there was –
Chris Case 55:53
But that’s – it gives it more power when you do
Rob Pickels 55:56
You really need him the **** to get him to swear.
Trevor Connor 56:00
Thanks, Rob. So something nobody knows is I was the editor of the show for a long time.
Chris Case 56:07
This is true.
Trevor Connor 56:08
And Chris would always record the intro at another time. So we wouldn’t record the intros live, we would do it later. And Chris, knowing that I don’t really like to swear, would always end the intro with the swear word of the week, and would try to see how uncomfortable he could make me.
Chris Case 56:28
Yeah, that was fun. I was never sitting in the room while you were editing. So I don’t know how uncomfortable you got. But you’d tell me sometimes.
Trevor Connor 56:36
Probably the most uncomfortable I got is when we hired Jana. Neither of us knew her yet. And you did not stop the swear word of the week.
Chris Case 56:44
Well, I took a chance. I went on a little bit of a flyer – I left her a swear word of the day. I’ve left Kelly’s swear words of the day as well. But with Jana, I, you know, I didn’t know her at all and I left one but then she would give it back and she basically ended everything when she used the ultimate. I’m not even going to repeat it on the air. But it was the ultimate swear word of the day. And I said Okay, you win.
Trevor Connor 57:08
So with that, hat Chris, said his farewell.
Chris Case 57:12
I wanted to see Trevor squirm as much as possible on my way out and so I left him a few little gifts. And it was in the moment. I did not rehearse, I did not plan, and I did not practice and I just went for it. And it was very organic. And there was, I think there was some some encouragement from the peanut gallery as well.
Grant Holicky 57:30
I was encouraging. I think I was back here doing this.
Rob Pickels 57:33
You know, you weren’t back here. You wouldn’t come into the office. You were on the computer.
Grant Holicky 57:39
Oh, I was in – I remember that – I was in my garage on the computer listeningng to that. Laughing my *beep* off
Rob Pickels 57:50
Well, let’s listen to it now.
Chris Case 57:52
That was another episode of Fast Talk, subscribe to Fast Talk wherever you prefer to find your favorite podcasts. Be sure to leave us a rating and reviews. The thoughts and opinions expressed on Fast Talk are those of the individual. That’s why we love your mother*beeep* feedback. Join the conversation at forums*beep*fasttalklabs*beep*com to discuss each and every episode. See *beep* laboratories and mother *beep* Fast Talk Labs.com/*beep*join and become a part of *beep* education and coaching *beep* community. For Trevor Connor, Ben Delaney, mother *beep* Grant Holicky, Robert Pickles, thanks for listening.
Rob Pickels 58:37
And don’t ever expect to hear Chris again.
Grant Holicky 58:46
Can we do that? Is that okay?
Chris Case 58:54
I don’t *beep* care…and I’m out.
