Potluck Discussion: The Value of Marginal Gains, Attacking in Training Races, and What to Do in an Emergency

In this week’s show, we talk about marginal gains in the Tour, how best to approach training races, and what to do if you encounter an emergency mid-ride.

Grandrieu, France-July 16, 2022: Team,Jumbo Visma Riding
Grandrieu, France - July 16, 2022: Team Jumbo Visma riding in front of the peloton on Cote de la Fage in the Cevennes mountains during stage 14 of the Tour de France.

Welcome to another potluck conversation with coach Grant Holicky, coach Trevor Connor, and physiologist Rob Pickels. In these discussions, we pick topics we find interesting and our three experts will break them apart using a mix of science, humor, and their own experience.  

Do Marginal Gains Hurt or Help at the Tour? 

Coach Holicky asks about what marginal gains the rest of the team would focus on if they were at the Tour. We ended up in a deep conversation about whether Tadej Pogacar focused too much on the marginal gains in the first week of the Tour that potentially cost him the win. We might not have come to a consensus, but it certainly led to an interesting discussion.  

Should You Attack or Sit in During Training Races? 

There’s a lot of reasons to use training races for training—some better than others. But Connor asks the question, if your fitness isn’t great, should you just sit in and try to get to the end, or should you use the race to attack until you get popped?

Find out if you should sit in or attack at your next training race by planning ahead. Joe Friel’s Planning Skills Webinar explains how to develop personal training, short-term, and even sport-specific plans that best suits your needs.

What To Do in An Emergency 

A few days before this recording, Pickels found himself on the side of the road trying to revive a cyclist who was in cardiac arrest. It was a harrowing experience that made him pose the question to all of us: Would you know what to do in this situation? Pickels shares his suggestions from years of working in cardiac rehab.  

We’re sure many of you have had similar experiences. If you have and learned good lessons from it, please share with the rest of our listeners in the forum discussion.

Get ready for some interesting conversations—and let’s make you fast! 

Episode Transcript

Trevor Connor  00:05

Welcome to another episode of Fast Talk. I guess I am doing the intros.

Grant Holicky  00:10

You’re the intro guy now.

Rob Pickels  00:11

That’s because you need more practice.

Trevor Connor  00:12

For these potlucks? You gotta warn me of these. I did not bring up the intro text, I still don’t have it memorized.

Rob Pickels  00:20

Your science for the source of people talking about things they want to talk about.

Trevor Connor  00:24

I’m not even sure that was grammatically perfect, but something along those lines. We are “sciencey” people but not today.

Grant Holicky  00:34

Well, there’ll be some science today. I mean –

Rob Pickels  00:37


Grant Holicky  00:38

Sci-speriential? Yeah, is that a thing?

Rob Pickels  00:40

It is parallel to –

Trevor Connor  00:42

– the side of science today? Is that what we’re doing?

Grant Holicky  00:46

Science adjacent.

Trevor Connor  00:49

There we go. Like that. I like what I’m going with because I don’t have a single study for this one. So you know how I feel.

Dr. Stephen Seiler  00:58

Hi, I’m Dr. Steven Siler. I gotta tell you, it’s a thrill for me to have the opportunity to go in and see a whole collection of my lectures and webinars all in one place, free of charge. For the members of fast talk in the broader Sports Science World. And not only me, but other sports scientists have collected their work in fast Ark laboratories is presenting it for all of you to use and learn from every day.

Rob Pickels  01:28

Join at our free listener member level to see Dr. silos, lectures and webinars. Join now at fast talk labs.com. All right, what are we doing today, Trevor?

Trevor Connor  01:39

Well, this is another potluck. So we’ve each got questions. It seems like we’ve got a format and grant, you always get to go first. I get to go first. Okay, by the way, Grant is looking snazzy. He got a haircut he is. So

Grant Holicky  01:53

here’s my question. This is what I want to hear from you guys. So over the last, you know, I guess what, eight years, starting with Sky, there’s been this big conversation at the tour about marginal gains. And you can see those marginal gains in various different ways. This year, it’s super hot at the tour. So different people doing different things like good clips of finger guard and poker char on their trainers after the stages. There was a picture out the other day of like inside the NES tent, and there’s the person with his feet up in a ice bath. So my question to you guys is out of those marginal gains, which are you the most likely to try? What would you be trying if you were in the tour? What would you be like? Hey, guys, we gotta have this sorted out.

Rob Pickels  02:43

Can I ask does this have to be a sponsor appropriate? No. Okay. Absolutely. It’s an open discussion.

Grant Holicky  02:49

Yeah. Because I do think there’s a lot of that stuff going on. That’s not necessarily sponsor appropriate. There’s just no pictures of it. There’s reason there’s buses.

Trevor Connor  02:57

Yeah. Rob, we have no sponsors.

Rob Pickels  02:59

Well, no, I mean, if I were, I’m putting myself in the shoes in the saddle of a Pro Tour rider. You know, they have concerns Shammi in the shadow of a Pro Tour rider, they have concerns that I don’t have, right, but they have washing machines in their buses, so they’re clean shammies Yeah, they

Grant Holicky  03:19

have everything they need everything.

Rob Pickels  03:21

I don’t know, Trevor, are you a marginal gains guy?

Trevor Connor  03:24

No. So I’ve actually so I’m gonna give you the cop out answer here. So you guys can talk about the marginal gains. But actually, this particular tour, the spoiler alert, if you haven’t watched the tour, but by the time this is up, the tour is over. So hopefully you’ve all seen this and know what happens.

Rob Pickels  03:42

I didn’t watch today. Yeah, no, wait a second here.

Trevor Connor  03:44

I haven’t seen the final today. Right now, the final Pyrenees stage is going on. So we don’t know what happened. Okay. But as of last night, you saw that Todd a basically has given up trying to get the elegir certainly seemed like it didn’t. Yeah. And look, I watched the first week of the tour. And you saw Todd a going for those little marginal gains. And the thing that shocked me was seeing him being in the sprints and attacking in those Sprint’s trying to get the two seconds here, the three seconds there. And my response to that, after watching a ton of tours, and as a coach was, he’s in trouble. Because that’s not the way a grand tour winner should be racing in that first week.

Rob Pickels  04:30

So your take is that if he felt like he needed such a small margin, that he probably didn’t have the wherewithal to be able to actually win out on the road and get the big commanding lead like he normally would have done

Trevor Connor  04:42

by feeling I think some of this was youthful exuberance. He came in and said how can I train better and worked on those little sides of his training? I gotta get a better sprint. I gotta get those extra seconds in the first few stages instead of just focusing on what is the best training for a girl and tour winner and messed up his training.

Grant Holicky  05:03

Well, I would even take that maybe a step further watching that tour where he got to the stage where he cracked it look like a straight bonk. I mean he was pretty solid going into it and then all of a sudden he wasn’t anymore. And that’s not to me that doesn’t scream fitness. All the sudden he’s unzipping his jersey last time you bought you remember you you felt like you’re sweating all over the place. You felt like you were a train wreck. And you just ran out of food. And he had one really really bad day. So this comes back to your point of maximal gains, right like, eat right or just do this

Trevor Connor  05:37

little seconds he gained with those Sprint’s in the first week all went out the window sure when he had one bad day and you know by counter argument to that is named any 23 day period where you didn’t go out and have a bad day on the bike and bog a little bit. If you think that these guys don’t have moments where they bonk Oh, yeah. But as would you train right as a grand tour winner, you can push through that bonk. You know, I always did that type of training. I remember when I was on Rio Grande. I go out with guys, and they were always trying to get me to crack, right. And whether you’re a couple times guys in the scene for like, Trevor, you’d never crack it drives us nuts. I’m like, Yeah, I do. Like we haven’t seen him like, yes, you have. But we didn’t drop you and I went right? Because that’s the type of training I do. Even when I crack Yes, I’m not attacking you. But I can sit on your wheel. And so to me, what I saw on the tour and people please feel free to argue with us. But I saw Todd a going too much in those Sprint’s at the beginning, I think he got his training mix just a little bit wrong. And he paid for it in those first couple days in the mountains. And that’s the one for the marginal gains, as opposed to the maximal gains cost him I can see

Grant Holicky  06:45

that. So look,

Trevor Connor  06:46

I’ve got to qualify this, I would give my left arm to have today’s forum on his worst day. So I’m not saying we got a bad rider here. The reason I like having this conversation about marginal gains with somebody at that level is because it’s really apparent, these things might make a difference for guys like you and me, but we might not actually notice it as much, but you’re really going to see it at that level.

Rob Pickels  07:15

I don’t know, Trevor, talk to me when you’re ready to give your left leg?

Trevor Connor  07:18

Well that I wouldn’t quite have his for.

Rob Pickels  07:23

But you’d still be faster than I would even with the one like you have left?

Trevor Connor  07:28

That’s a good point.

Rob Pickels  07:29

I’ll take it. Yeah, for me marginal gains really brings up the idea of of equipment and equipment choice. Maybe that’s just my my personal bias, right. And for me, the biggest thing is it’s tires, right? And so I am a huge tire nerd, mostly because I feel like I derive a lot of confidence from tires, right? That’s my connection to the road, right? Yeah. And if I feel safe and confident than I ride better, I ride smoother. I don’t brake as hard. I’m not as choppy in my power or whatever else on descending. But then also, you know, if I’m confident that I’ve chosen the right tire that has great rolling resistance and all of these aspects, I’m not losing that two watts here. They’re sure and it doesn’t sound like much it sounds like a marginal game. But over a course that is that long. How many kilocalories is that saving you at the end of the day that protects you from this bonking? You know, we could do the math, and maybe I’ll put it up, I can’t do it in my head right now. But we could probably, you know, calculate how many calories you’re saving based on the workload at the end of a, you know, seven hour long tour stage. You know, and so for me, I think that that’s really important. And that’s why I asked the question, Does sponsor matter? Right, and I think a lot of people are locked into whatever team, you know, sponsor that they have and the equipment that they have. And I know on the mountain bike side of things, you know, especially on downhill, taking it a little bit outside this realm, you will see riders running the tires, they want to run in blacking out the side walls and everything else. Yeah, I don’t know that you see that as much on the road. But for me that marginal gain, it really comes down to tires because of both the performance and the confidence in the mental side of it for

Grant Holicky  09:16

  1. Yeah, I mean, we’ve seen that in a tour with wheels a lot, you know, where they’ve gone to a different wheel manufacturer, and I’ve seen those things kind of blacked out. But I kind of agree with Trevor on some of this. I mean, some of the posts stage stuff, I think is wild that it’s never been used before like that sky was bringing out trainers post stage for the first time five or six years ago and before that people just got on the bus and sat down. So that’s like a terrible idea. Coke. Yeah, you’ll be fine. Maybe walk around the bus, a

Rob Pickels  09:49

little wizard Vanderpool and his Hawaiian pizza in the Giro. Oh, god, that was great.

Grant Holicky  09:53

But I just that whole, that whole thing of the Giro with Vanderpol was great. I think One of the things that I would use is on those hot days and I get pooh poohed for this from a lot of people, but I love the ice bath. Yeah, I love an ice bath,

Rob Pickels  10:08

but not free ice bath pre cooling.

Grant Holicky  10:11

I like pre cooling. I think it’s really important. But I mean, we can use an ICE vest for that, or and you see you see them going through the ice stocking a Sox is a huge amount. And again, I don’t feel like 10 years ago, they were even doing that that much. And maybe the coolers just got good enough that you can have ice for five hours.

Trevor Connor  10:30

certainly tell you 10 years ago when I was racing full time. Yeah, I stockings. We were getting them all the time. Yeah, to believe they were doing it.

Grant Holicky  10:38

Okay. You just don’t. I didn’t see him in jerseys quite as much as I see him now. Right? And it seems like that’s a no brainer. But like after a 40 degrees Celsius stage, which over 100 degrees, just to sit in a cool bath and lower the body temperature and get you to a place where you might be able to sleep at night. Seems like a no brainer. It seems like low hanging fruit.

Rob Pickels  10:59

And would you go full Pidcock and climb into the fountain? Of course.

Grant Holicky  11:04

It was incredible. Probably pass on that just for E coli purposes. I did walk by the splash pad. My wife calls it out here the boulders the E coli pad on Pearl Street. Yeah, I mean, I would I would do that. But I you know, I think we can come back to some of what Trevor was saying. We get like, Oh, these guys have the mesh, the mesh sides on their, their shorts or the jerseys this or selecting this helmet or that helmet? I think you can get yourself into option paralysis on some of this stuff that you just go on so deep. And what do I need? What do I do and just overthinking it, just go ride your bike?

Trevor Connor  11:42

Well, so I’ll give it a denim to my statement, which is first you got to figure out the maximal formula, right, as you said, what works there. And then if there’s things that you can add on that don’t impact that, by all means go go do it like I stockings, they can make a difference. If they don’t make a difference. Who cares. It’s not impacting anything else. It might just make you mentally feel better, but that’s fine. It’s when you start doing these minimal gains, these marginal gains and they start impacting the big stuff. I look the other way that I think I want to add to make the counter argument to the he just had a day that he bogged is looking at yesterday’s stage, which was stage 17, where it ended up coming down to three of them and he had his it taught I had his lieutenant on the front and taught he couldn’t attack. Yeah. And that as a tour leader, if you can’t attack when you’re a lieutenant on the front, you did something wrong with your training. Yeah.

Grant Holicky  12:41

And there’s no doubt he’s off but finger guard has been fantastic. And we have coming right like the last year when Rod was fell apart for various reasons. All of a sudden, Jonas is there and he’s not getting dropped. I mean, they certainly have seen glimpses of this. And I do think the tendency is to look at the guy who’s been dominant and say, well, he’s fallen apart. Vanguards just a really been good. And I do think that again, as you mentioned, Trevor, we haven’t seen the whole thing and this final time trial is going to be interesting to see what both those guys are able to do. Yep, I don’t think it’s a two minute gap right? But who knows?

Trevor Connor  13:22

We’ll see we haven’t seen it yet. But here’s my hot take and I’m probably gonna be dead wrong.

Grant Holicky  13:27

Like that you got out on this limb. Now we know the whole

Trevor Connor  13:31

you know, we’ve had Sebastian weapon here talking about the VLA Max versus vo two max and the way Todd a sprinting right now I don’t see him be able to take two minutes in the time trial. Yeah, I

Rob Pickels  13:42

think his aerobic capacity is down a little bit his anaerobic capacity is that’s what

Trevor Connor  13:46

I was seeing in the first week everybody’s going oh my god, this guy’s unbeatable. Look at these winning the Sprint’s and I’m looking at that going? He did the wrong training. And look, you need to go saw Milan Dr. nirsoft. Milan is is his coach, and we’ve had him on the show. And dodge saw Milan is a great training for them. My guess is this was some youthful exuberance. And some guys were convincing today. Oh, you got to do this. You got to do that. And instead of fully listening to his coach, he started doing some stuff he probably shouldn’t have done.

Rob Pickels  14:13

Yeah, I’m not a huge speculator, I have absolutely no clue. You know, for me, it would be going back to that conversation. I’d love to see power files to know, maybe this is the best he’s ever been. And it’s just not good enough. We don’t know that. And I would love the objective data to be able to ascertain that.

Grant Holicky  14:31

Yeah. One last thing that I want to observe about the tour and I think this is always interesting that talking about the American riders, and the four American riders. Well, there’s more than four but the the four young guys right, so Nielsen, Mateo, and then Brandon McNulty and set. They’ve been fantastic. Yes, but one thing to point out and again, this is we’re midway through this right Brandon McNulty was amazing yesterday, and he had this unbelievable climbing day, people Lose in there. You know what? Oh my god, it’s incredible. He is a pure climber. Not a pure climber. Don’t forget, these guys don’t have to be there every day. Right? I mean, I hate to say that right? The day before Sep was unreal, he stepped up and he was great. And then yesterday he cracked. All right kind of makes sense. The day before Brandon was nowhere to be found, because Raphael mica was still there. Now McNulty comes because he probably sat in a group pedo yesterday and had an easy day. So let’s not do what we’ve done with some of these American stars in the past and immediately assume these guys are gonna go win the Tour someday, they might they have that capacity. And they might have that ability. But one great climbing date is not a tour star, right,

Trevor Connor  15:44

which is, I feel the mistake they made with TJ van Garderen. I’ve always felt bad for him because he had a great tour as a lieutenant. And they immediately went, let’s make him the leader at the Tour add the pressure you feel when you’re the leader at the tour. And as you said, you have to be there every day. It can be too much they should have said you have the potential. Let’s take you to like the dolphin a try to win that then let’s take you to the Volta see if you can do that. And then try yet the tour but it was too big a jump.

Grant Holicky  16:15

Yeah. And thing I always thought they made a mistake with TJ is it was pretty obvious pretty early, that this was a guy that could win a one week tour. And he was gonna struggle a little bit over three weeks. All right. Don’t make him your tour captain for three week tours, right? Make him your captain for one week tours and go win a bunch of races. And instead it was like, Well, that one’s not important. And I do think that’s a mistake that’s made with a lot of riders is a if they can win something, let them win it. I was super worried about this with Wow, two or three years ago when people were oh my god, he can climb. And they had one year on yumbo. Were going into the season they were talking about trying to get wild to lose weight. Yeah, yeah. And he had a terrible year are terrible by his standards right? Now look at him. That guy is not concerned about losing weight anymore. He’s a

Rob Pickels  17:01

beast. And he is a super Domus. I mean, the guy’s incredible. He’s

Grant Holicky  17:06

  1. He’s unbelievable. And when he’s I mean, he’s been to me, he’s still the most impressive rider of this whole tour. Yep. Whether all of his choices have been good ones. That mean that could be questionable about going off the front. But guys unbelievable. And I do think it’s a great lesson for riders, Masters riders, pro riders, coaches, you don’t have to change your rider. Maybe take what your otter is already good at and enhance that. And then let’s see where it goes. But this goes

Trevor Connor  17:33

back to the maximal gains versus marginal gains, if you are building a grand tour winner, the maximal gains, the most important thing to train is the ability to get through 23 days without having a bad day. Which is really, really hard to do. But if you you gain a second here a second there and have all these little things that go this game to second this game to second, then you have a day where you lose four minutes. Who cares? That’s irrelevant.

Rob Pickels  17:58

Yeah. But what if you know, contrary to that, what if you’re coming into something and you’re equally matched? And you lose the grantor by four seconds? Because you didn’t gain them on the marginal gains?

Trevor Connor  18:09

You still have? What I’m saying is that’s irrelevant unless you first put together the maximal gains, which is you can get through the tour without a bad day.

Rob Pickels  18:17

Yeah, I mean, and that’s fine. I am of the opinion. I feel like a lot of people treat things as mutually exclusive. And I don’t think that they are, right. I love the statement of this. Why do you need your bike to be lighter? You can lose 20 pounds off your guy. Yeah, man, you can lose 20 pounds off your gut and two pounds off your bike. Why wouldn’t you do both of those things? Sure. You know, and they they discount something that can be done? Because it’s in the shadow of something else that can be done

Grant Holicky  18:45

and often it’s in the shadow of bigger thing.

Trevor Connor  18:47

So get my argument is focus on the maximal gains, get that taken care of and then add whatever you can on top of that, but never have the marginal gains. supplant the maximal gains. That’s the argument that make Yeah, yeah, there’s a hierarchy of needs here. Right, right. Yeah. So yeah, why wouldn’t you ride a lighter bike? No, if riding a lighter bike, because

Rob Pickels  19:08

heavier bikes make you stronger, bro,

Trevor Connor  19:10

which I agree with it. Look at Trevor’s got

Rob Pickels  19:15

water in his tires. He’s got, you know, leadframe

Trevor Connor  19:20

seriously, like I do a Thursday night training race. I weigh my bike down for that training race because I want that race to be as hard as possible on me. Do I do the same thing in a real race? Hell no.

Rob Pickels  19:31

I’m picturing Trevor at Chipotle, like beforehand. He’s like stuffed burritos, you know, he’s like, Oh, my yum is heavy as I could possibly be. And then he like eats some raw chicken and just like vomits everything out this day and like loses his weight rolls up

Grant Holicky  19:46

to a rod like Tom scorpions. Like 15 bottles.

Rob Pickels  19:50

Right? That was a first off I come from like the softgoods the cycling jersey press. That was incredible how many bottles he had like I want to know what fabric you’re using.

Grant Holicky  20:02

I do want to know who tracks psych jersey sponsor is I don’t know who it is off the top of my head. I don’t know off the top. But that’s pretty impressive. That was a lot of bottles. I will say this about the hierarchy. I think the hierarchy doesn’t necessarily need to be marginal or maximal. It needs to be what’s the lowest hanging fruit? What’s the simplest thing you can get? If that’s to second gain? Great, take the simple to second gain. If that’s a 20 minute grant, take the 20 Minute gain, right. But like for me, what I’m saying is a simple ice bath. On a super hot day. What that can do to your core temp. To

Rob Pickels  20:37

me low hanging fruit, very little cost, very little tension. The big benefit very easy. I

Grant Holicky  20:42

mean, we do this with the cross team after the early season cross races. I’m going out on the way home getting three bags of ice and we’re getting in an ice bath because I want them to sleep. Let’s finish

Trevor Connor  20:53

this up there. That’s your approach. My approach is figure out the maximal gains First, figure out the training plan that works. And then add whatever you can on top of that, that does not in any way impact the maximal gains. Rob, how would you describe your approach?

Rob Pickels  21:09

Be super nerdy, test everything, make good choices? make good choices? Sounds simple, doesn’t it? Yeah,

Grant Holicky  21:14

that’s what my mom used to yell at me on the way out the door. She says, Wow,

Trevor Connor  21:21

I got philosophical about life. Let’s move on to the next question. Boom, boom pom pom pom pom pom pom pom pom pom pom pom pom? Can’t take this. Okay, well, on to my question. I’m gonna stick with my training themes. But this is what I’ve been thinking about. Because my fitness has not been great lately. I love to do training races. And so I do this one every Thursday. And I used to go out to it and absolutely attack the heck out of it.

Rob Pickels  21:54

Hold on wait Thursday, Thursday, you do Tuesday to sometimes he’s trading races? No, I will either do Tuesday her to hear her say I didn’t do this. Trevor, have we talked about how much high intensity work you should be doing per week.

Grant Holicky  22:08

If we talked about your recovery, just do your theme music, and we talked about your age.

Trevor Connor  22:14

I avoid that conversation more and more. So here’s my question. If your fitness is not as good, so you are at a training race, and it takes a bit of effort just to stay in there. Should you just sit in the field and try to get to the end? Or should you be saying this is a training race? I’m going to attack I’m going to go on the moves. And if I only last 20 minutes and then get popped? That’s fine. But that’s how I get stronger. Or are you better just hanging until the end? And I’m asking this because like I said my approach to training races is I go and attack I be in the moves. And the last time I went fitness wasn’t great. I did the sit in thing and I was not happy with myself. But was that the right move? For training purposes?

Grant Holicky  23:03

It depends. I know. Oh, so are these training races are our group rides

Rob Pickels  23:10

anymore? Okay. Does everyone else know it’s a training race? Yes. Okay.

Grant Holicky  23:14

So it’s one of those like Tuesday night credits or something?

Trevor Connor  23:16

Yeah. So you you know this one is the bus stop ride. Oh, but it’s a ride. Okay. Okay, but it’s a race. There’s a finish line. You are racing one another? Some of these guys. This is their event?

Grant Holicky  23:26

I totally understand. I totally understand that. Yeah, I would say it depends because it depends on where you’re struggling with your fitness. Right? Like if you’re struggling on your top end. Is everybody knows I take a lot of this stuff from the mental approach or the psycho biological model right? So where are you struggling? Why are you grinning?

Rob Pickels  23:47

Because I thought you said the cycle illogical, like bicycle and I was like they have a theory specifically for bike riding.

Grant Holicky  23:54

Yeah, give it a couple of weeks I’ll come out with it it’s written in the back of a spiral notebook. Don’t worry about it. Super professional man, like researched like crazy. No, it’s it depends like so if you’re a rider right now that’s having trouble recovering from the surges, right? Like the the pace goes way up and then struggling to kind of sit there at LT and recover. Then yeah, I would say attack over and over and over again. If it’s more of a general fitness just isn’t good enough, then I would maybe advise the rider to sit in. I as a coach don’t like group rides and group races. I like the structured stuff to be structured. And the unstructured stuff to be unstructured. This may seem really weird coming from me. But I mean, I’m gonna I’m all for riders doing them though. Most riders really enjoy that aspect of the training. So I put it in for an enjoyment piece, but I usually try to give them a goal. Alright, you go on to the Thursday bus stop ride. Your goal is to attack off the front over and over and over again. Your goal tonight is the sit in and do as little as humanly possible. So, yeah, I think it depends. It depends on what the rider needs depends maybe on what you need. That’s a good solid straddle the fence answer, how do you like that?

Rob Pickels  25:13

I’m gonna I’m gonna try to be a little bit more about this one. But, Trevor, I’m going to actually throw it back to you. And I’m going to reframe the question, because I think the concept of this is happening during a race, a training race. I think that that actually adds an element of confusion to the question. So let me ask you this. If you have an athlete, that’s out, and they’re going to do an interval workout, and it’s supposed to be three by 20 minutes, at 300 Watts fictitious? I know you couldn’t do that much. Three by 2300 Watts, but a three by 20, or three by eight, no, no, no three by 20. Yep, at 300 watts. But they’re not able to hold the 300 watts for the 20 minutes. They’re having a bad day, their fitness isn’t great, whatever it may be. Would your recommendation would you tell your athlete? Well, instead, you should continue three by 20. But you should bring the workload down? Or no, the 300 Watts is more important. You should only do three by eight minutes, or whatever you could, is the time more important or is the workload and just hold it as long as you can?

Trevor Connor  26:19

My answer is it depends. No, God, no, it does depend. Because when I give them a workout, Rob is literally literally leaving, I never give them a you have to hold a specific wattage because your correct wattage is going to vary day to day, I will always give them the range. So first of all, is that within the range, so if 280 is still within the range, that’s okay. But then I’m also going to have them look at heart rate, look at RPE and see how they’re feeling that day. If it’s my heart rates not coming up at all. I’m not feeling good. I can only do this at 280, I’m going to go you are fatigued, you should not be doing a workout. If they’re saying I feel fine. And this happened yesterday, I was actually doing to buy 90 minute intervals. I was 15 Watts below what I did two weeks ago, but I was feeling fine heart rate response was good. And I just really don’t want I think I was having a really good workout two weeks ago, did the workout I was fine that I was 15 Watts lower. So it’s are you in that place? And hey, I’m just not as high as I was on another day. But it’s within the range I get it done or is it? Yeah, I’m not recovered. I should not be doing intensity today. That’s the determination you need to make. That’s why it depends.

Rob Pickels  27:36

So what I’ll say is based on that, I will now assimilate my recommendation to you, Trevor, in which case in your training race, I feel like you should continue for the duration of the training race that you should run that

Trevor Connor  27:49

you had me at. You have an athlete,

Rob Pickels  27:53

but you should back off of the pack and finish the race at whatever workload you’re able to do it. But go for the full duration.

Grant Holicky  27:59

Yeah, I had an athlete a couple of years ago, and I wrote out a workout, right? And I said, if the watts, aren’t there complete the workout. Don’t worry about hitting this mark exactly, or something like that. And I got an email back and the training piece thing and it said, couldn’t hold the wattage bailed after one or something like that. And I’m screaming in my basement. Now read the I very much agree with you, Trevor. And in this whole like, general idea, right? It’s, I’ve said this before, I’ll say it again, it’s FTP for a reason. It’s functional for a reason. Functional means where are you on that any given day, and you probably have your high end. But there’s a whole lot of reasons that this end could be that high end can be pushed down, sleep, food, all those things, you certainly have to worry about being over fatigue, you have to be able to recognize when you’re in a place on a group ride or in a workout, and then you’re gone. Like now I shouldn’t be doing this today. Something’s wrong, something is wrong. And in some of the heat we’ve had over the last two weeks in Boulder, and certainly on the East Coast, and certainly in Europe, there are certainly situations where you need to pull the plug on a workout because it’s 100 degrees out, and something’s wrong. So okay, go home and do those things. But like, I hate the idea. Well, my my lt is 300. I wasn’t holding 300 So I just bailed 280 works, people to set me 90 200% or however you want to define that threshold

Rob Pickels  29:28

range. And I think for me, right, we’re talking 10% If you’re going for 300. But you can do 270 You should probably keep going I think if you can only do 250 Maybe you’re so far off. It’s you’re

Grant Holicky  29:40

getting the same physiological response for the most part, right? And so when it comes to a training race, this is why I’m so adamant about why are we going to do that training race. What are we testing? What are we checking? And if we’re checking just general fitness, well, you got your answer the other day you tried It didn’t really work. You were dying a little bit. I’d say Hang in there, keep doing it. And you’ve got your answer. Now you can go and create a training plan that addresses what’s missing. Right? This is my theory on coaching in general or mental coaching in general, you create a hypothesis, you test your hypothesis, what Melanie was talking about, McQuade right, you do the experiment, then you come to your conclusions. you rewrite your hypothesis, you try again, this is exactly what the whole thing is about.

Rob Pickels  30:28

Yeah. You know, Grant, I hate the fact that I say, you know, all the time, just so everybody knows that. I know that I say, you know, constantly,

Trevor Connor  30:36

I told you, you become a host of a podcast and listen to yourself, you are going to figure out everything you hate about the way you talk, and so bad anyway, do you know how often I use the word fantastic? Constantly? Yes. About as much as I say, you know

Grant Holicky  30:49

how fantastic I feel like I sound on this podcast. You will you don’t have

Rob Pickels  30:53

any like weird. I haven’t noticed anything in you. Well, I’ve noticed a lot of things. Yeah,

Grant Holicky  30:58

it’s my appearance that that’s why the video podcasts will be the end of me on this show.

Rob Pickels  31:04

Grant was fired because he looks like garbage most of the time. He’s like the Swamp Thing that walked out of the pool like, claws.

Trevor Connor  31:16

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Rob Pickels  31:55

I think that having a purpose, even for a training race, I’m glad that you brought that up. Why are you there? Why are you doing that? And I think that that ranges, sometimes it’s fitness, sometimes it’s fun with your friends. Absolutely. Who knows. And sometimes it’s motivation. As long as you’re meeting your purpose for that event. And I think you continue if you stop meeting your purpose, if your goal is to go in, and you’re gonna say, I want to tea tea on the front and pull the field and motivate me to a good solid effort then do that. Or it could be I want to sprint hard out of every corner and turn this into a short repeated interval workout, then great go do that. If you can’t do that, then maybe it’s time to bag it.

Trevor Connor  32:34

So I’m not sure what my question ended up being whether I don’t know. Or should you do your 20 minute intervals that 300 versus 280. But I think we got something

Grant Holicky  32:46

that’s kind of related, right? Like, what are you gonna get out of it?

Rob Pickels  32:49

And purpose? Yeah, I mean, I’m glad you brought that up. I think that that’s the root of both of those questions.

Grant Holicky  32:54

I would agree with that. And I think that’s really, really important. And I think this is relevant to as you go into the change of seasons. Are you changing your discipline? Well, now I’m going to do an across right now I’m going to do the group road ride or doing the group. Why are you there? What do you need to work on? Assess afterwards? Take some feedback. Move forward.

Rob Pickels  33:14

Bob’s your uncle.

Trevor Connor  33:15

My purpose is always the same. Cool. People don’t know that the quote quote the crusher enemies, see them driven before you.

Rob Pickels  33:26

And that was always my purpose. Are we on? Trevor’s good side?

Grant Holicky  33:30

That port group, right? Everybody’s what was the movie? There’s this old movie A long time ago where a guy was It was like one of those Saturday night specials about Dungeons and Dragons, right? And he looked at a random person and saw the monster and tried to kill them. I feel like that’s Trevor. Every time he goes to a ride. It could just be me standing there going. Hi, Trevor. And he says I’m going to crush you, Trevor.

Trevor Connor  33:57

Sadly, that’s about accurate. Sounds about right. I will go and grab a beer with you after a race. I will be your best friend before the race. In the race. I will destroy you and then back up and roll over you.

Grant Holicky  34:11

All right, as long as we know. That’s fine.

Rob Pickels  34:15

Hey, you remember that sprint workout video we recorded together? Yes, we did you have those feelings during that.

Trevor Connor  34:20

I couldn’t catch you to roll. Otherwise, yes, I

Rob Pickels  34:25

was starting to feel bad for you. I didn’t realize I was doing that to your to your ego at that point.

Trevor Connor  34:30

I am not that bad in the race. itself. It’s

Grant Holicky  34:34

time to move on. Yes. And we’ll go to rob, where are you at?

Rob Pickels  34:39

I have a story. I always have a story, or like your story. So for me Saturday rides or big adventure rides. I love to take my mountain bike into some more secluded less travel places kind of out in the backcountry. The area that I wrote in this time had 30 riders on a Strava segment for that for the whole year. So Some people have gone there, but not very many. And the route was pretty hard, a lot of steep climbs, I’m off my bike, I’m hiking, I’m pushing, panting, working really hard. And I’m in the absolute middle of nowhere. And I kind of get to the top of where I’m going. And I knew that there was a dissent that I could take, it was a trail, I was a little bit late, I thought maybe I should go that way. But ultimately, I chose to go the original way that I plan to go because of time, and because my family and everything was at home, this story is going somewhere, just so you know. And that faith, that place that it’s going is here, as I descended down a very common popular Road in in Boulder County, I came upon an emergency, there was a cyclist that was in significant need of help. And I feel very fortunate that I’ve spent 20 years in the medical field, and I was equipped and able to help this person to the best of my abilities. You know, but the thing that I’m interested in talking about today is would you guys, both Trevor grant, but then also all the listeners out there would you know what to do in this emergency situation? And have you guys ever been into a situation where either you needed care or there was somebody else that needed care? And what was that? Like?

Trevor Connor  36:17

I think you need to tell the the extent of the story. I know.

Rob Pickels  36:21

Okay, yeah, if you want, I can go a little bit deeper. As I was descending down, I noticed a rider coming up a very steep stretch of road fall over in front of me. I immediately stopped within two seconds of them hitting the ground. I checked with them. I introduce myself, I asked them their name, they were able to tell me, I asked if if anything hurt what was bothering them. And they said, I’m just I’m so tired. I’m so tired. And I checked pulse carotid pulse radial pulse pulse was very weak. I continued to ask him questions. Do you know what day it is kind of a mumble kind of starting to lose consciousness. So I flagged down a car and I said, Hey, this guy’s in trouble. Can you call 911. As I turned back around, the person was blue, and they were in a hypoxic seizure. So I immediately started CPR, rolled them on their back and began chest compressions. And did that for approximately 10 minutes until volunteer EMS arrived. And it was a surreal experience because I’m literally in a ditch on the side of the road, literally in a ditch. I still have like cuts on my knee from doing CPR and people were riding up and down. They were driving up and down the road, two feet behind me, as I’m in the ditch with this guy. I did compressions for 10 minutes, volunteer, EMS showed up and they did they had an AED, they continued compressions. Professional ambulance showed up, they did everything they could you know, at that point, they were able to introduce some some cardiac medication, the helicopter showed up, we had everybody there on the side of the road for an hour. And at the end of the day, he didn’t make it. It was a very surreal experience for me. And I to cap it off, I wrote back home in a in a raining thunderstorm, afraid to climb up a steep hill to get back to my house. You know, and so it’s it’s a 20 years in the medical field. This is the first time I’ve ever had to do this in real life. And it was amazing that I was able to step in and just it took over like, you know, it absolutely was an automatic response. It was a blur. I wasn’t aware of anything going on around me.

Trevor Connor  38:34

Yeah. So first, thank you for sharing that. I know that was a tough experience on you. But it’s an important question. And glad you brought it up. So

Rob Pickels  38:44

everyone’s shell shocked. Now everyone is just like, sorry, to be the downer of this episode. But it is important. And in the thing I knew is I was descending down. I knew immediately this was my topic. We have to talk about this. Yes, right. Because sometimes I can be a little like, Oh, we’re just out in the media world creating content. And for me if something good comes out of this, this one topic this one episode. It’s all worth it.

Trevor Connor  39:09

So last potluck, we asked people to go to our forum, you can share the story and ask people to share their stories of their failures. And their response was great. Thank you for that. So we’ll create a forum thread for this and please come and share experiences you’ve had and more importantly, what you’ve learned from it. Yeah. So I guess I’ll start here because I have been in some similar situations. I told my story about my friend last year who suffered bad heat stress, we were worried we were going to lose him. What I have learned from these experiences is the biggest danger particularly have a lot of people is that effect of everybody swarming around and doing nothing. So what I have learned is if you have training like Rob did, get in there, take charge do something. If you don’t have something to add, you don’t have training you don’t know what to do, the best thing you can do is get out of there. Standing around, just gets in the way. So either help do something, use whatever training you have to help that person, or just get out of the way.

Rob Pickels  40:16

And I think that that help is potentially a lot of things. Help could be directing traffic. Yep. Yeah, you know, it helped does not necessarily mean doing multimodal, or giving somebody medicine. There. There’s a lot of things clearing the scene, if there’s an accident, getting the bike out of the middle of the road. But yeah, I understand what you’re saying. Yeah, helpful is important standing around

Trevor Connor  40:37

gawking, correct. You’re in the way

Grant Holicky  40:39

I think this I’ll make a point. Specific to bikes first, I’ve had some very similar experiences. But in the bike sense. First, I’m always a bit surprised when we’re out for a ride, and I have a flat or something like that. And how many people just go go buy? Yep. Be the person who asks, Do you need anything? Yep. And if it even if the person is just standing on the side of the road, for whatever, do you need anything? There is no harm in that question. And if the answer is, I could use some water, there might be a bigger issue. But we have a community here, I’ve always been pretty adamant about wave at the people you see on the road. And in Boulder, sometimes that means your left arm gets sore, because she’s up and down so often. But you know, they really have like minded people, we need to support our community. And asking if somebody needs some help. It’s such a small thing. And someday, it may be a huge thing, or what Rob went through, it may be a tiny thing where you get them home in time to see their daughter’s recital, their son’s soccer game because they didn’t have a tube. So stop and check on this stuff.

Rob Pickels  41:49

I think that that’s super important. And what’s also important is even if the answer is no, sometimes don’t believe that, yeah, keep an eye on him. Right? If you’re if you ride by and they’re just there, and they’re, they’re adjusting their headset or whatever. And they got the journal and they say, No, they’re fine. They’re probably fine. Yeah. But yeah, if something looks a little bit off, stop talk with them. You don’t have to pester them about some but just talk to they seem okay to they seem normal. And the reason I bring this up is I’ve been in this situation myself. I was mountain biking in the middle of nowhere, and I broke my collarbone. And I kind of liked these adventures, because I like getting myself out of jams. And so I did what I always do, I pick my bike up, and I just started walking with a broken collarbone. And fortunately, somebody came by and they said, Hey, are you okay? And I said, Yep, I’m fine. my collarbone was literally in five pieces at this point. And so they kept on writing. But then they got smart. And they were like, you know, I don’t think that guy’s okay. And they came back. And at the end of the day, I’m really happy that I had their help. Sure. It’s hard to push a bike with one arm down a trail.

Trevor Connor  42:55

So but these things happen to them, they can get into a delirious state where they don’t really know how they’re doing. Yeah, whether you do identify that and go, I don’t care what answers they’re giving me. They need help, or they’re just in

Grant Holicky  43:06

shock. And it doesn’t hurt yet. Yeah, right. And so looking at your situation, how many people rode by that could have been of service to what was going on? If they just said, yeah, do you need any help? 10 minutes of CPR, I’ve been there. I’ve done that it’s exhausting. Having somebody else come by and say, Do you need help? Do you know CPR? Yes, I do. Can you come in to person CPR is a heck of a lot easier than one person CPR, it changes the game. And it’s not that hard to coordinate between people, especially the way they teach CPR now, which is five and one or 15. And one Yeah, however they want to do

Rob Pickels  43:44

  1. So actually, you know, I’d love to give some recommendations here. The first recommendation that I’m going to give is specific to cardiac things. You can go to redcross.org. And one you can get training right there. And then you can also find a class and I think the in person classes are better than online. Because you you have somebody in the room that watches you do this stuff, then they’re they’re relatively cheap. Sometimes you can do it through your workplace, at the very least they’re less than $100. And it’s probably worthwhile info if you don’t have it. But I’m going to give some recommendations now that are very basic. And the reason I’m going to do it is this crappy CPR is better than you know CPR. Let’s let’s be very honest about that. Yeah. Okay. So if you do come across somebody, and you suspect a cardiac issue, right, signs of that could be significant fatigue in the person. They might not say anything about chest pain or chest pressure, and in my case, they kept reporting. I’m just so tired. This overwhelming heavy fatigue, not a Oh, my legs are tired because I was going up a steep climb. Okay, the other side of it, there can definitely be confusion that’s going on loss of consciousness. The very first thing that you have to do in a situation like that is check the scene for safety. There If you’re in the middle of the road, and on a blind corner, you have to get the person out of the road, you have to absolutely got to protect yourself more than anything,

Grant Holicky  45:07

because it’s not going to matter. It won’t matter. Right? Exactly. If somebody hits you with a car, it’s not gonna matter.

Rob Pickels  45:12

If that person is unresponsive, tap, hit them, try to wake them up, shout at them, try to regain consciousness. If their unconscious check for breathing, check for a pulse, put your ear down next to their their mouth, right? are they breathing or not? No breathing, no pulse, you have to call 911. First, you can do chest compressions forever, you will not bring that person back. Right? That is sustaining them. 911 is more important than anything else. So get 911. Or if you have a tracker, and I’ll talk about this later, hit that SOS button on your tracker, right? It’s not just for you, it’s for all of the people around you. And so it let’s say there’s no breathing, no pulse, you get 911 called get that person on their back, Neil over them, clasp your hands together, get the heel of your palm right in the center of their chest, on their sternum. And with the full weight of your body on your straight arms compress that chest straight down. You have to compress it down. You might hurt this person, you might break bones that is O. K, you’re doing it right in that situation. They can’t feel it. They’d rather be alive than have a broker. I

Trevor Connor  46:20

remember my CPR classes what you see in the movies. That yeah, right. And

Grant Holicky  46:24

I think this is one of the things that’s most important. It was a long time ago, but it and I’m gonna come back to this point. That was the experience I had giving CPR was, oh my god, this is not the same as they taught me like it. It feels very different. You go very deep. There’s a lot of sounds. Yep. And you have to continue to do it.

Rob Pickels  46:47

Correct. Yep. And you have to continue to do that in a good rhythm. Right? It’s count yourself out the counting, actually, it just it helps with the rhythm, one and two, and three and four, just that rhythm. That’s exactly what you need to be doing. And keep doing this until someone comes if somebody comes to relieve you, then great. The current recommendation now is chest compressions only, especially in somebody who has not formally trained in all honesty, it is very difficult to do rescue breaths correctly. And more often than not, you’re ending up blowing air into the person’s stomach, not into their lungs. If you are untrained, then just do the compressions. Now in the US and in most countries in the world for what it’s worth, there are quote unquote Good Samaritan laws. If you are trying to help someone to the best of your ability and you’re not doing something negligent, don’t don’t drop a boulder on their chest because you think that’s gonna revive them, that might be negligent. But you you are immune from any sort of legal liability, right? And so it’s okay to step up into try to do this.

Trevor Connor  47:54

So the thing that really had an impact on me, and this goes back to what I was saying before I learned and what am I CPR classes is, there is that lemming effect, you will have a bunch of people that will circle somebody who’s on the ground and trouble. And none of them will help. So if you have that bit of training, and nobody’s doing something, somebody has to take charge. So get down the ground, start helping them. But here’s the really interesting thing. If you say you gotta have 20 people surrounding if you say somebody called the police, yeah, nobody will do point you have to point to somebody to go you call the police. Yep, you get the bikes off the road, you direct traffic, you have to point to people tell them what to do. If you just generally say somebody to do this, somebody to do that. They’ll stand and watch and nobody will step up.

Rob Pickels  48:41

Yeah. And another thing that you’re raising up here, Trevor to is to also, I’m gonna say Be cautious. I don’t know that that’s the right word. But ultimately, it’s better to make a big deal out of nothing than it is to assume that something isn’t that important and to not do anything about it. Don’t be embarrassed. Don’t think something is going to reflect poorly on you. I think that those two things prevent a lot of people they want to help but they’re afraid they don’t want to mess something up. You know, or they don’t want to be like Grant man, you blue. Grant. You’re such an idiot. Why did you I was fun, you know? Yeah, amen.

Grant Holicky  49:18

Well, and here’s a last piece to that. An ambulance driving to a scene does not cost anybody anything, doesn’t matter about medical insurance doesn’t matter about anything that ambulance coming. And yet that person getting assessed, does not cost a penny. Yep. They don’t have to pay anything until they get into the ambulance. And at that point, the EMTs are going to be able to make a distinction about what’s going on. Give the advice if that person chooses that point not to do that because of money, whatever that’s on them. You’ve done your due diligence. So never worry about those aspects and those pieces of the puzzle. I would like to add a piece direct Lee to you. Yeah, I have been I was a lifeguard on the beach. That’s when we lost somebody different circumstances. But I was in a similar situation to you, I, on the way to a marathon and Crestview, we watched three fatality accident, were involved in the medical attention right afterwards. Talk about it. Yeah, share your story, share your emotions, share how you’re feeling, I’m affected to this day by those things. In positive and negative ways. I have flashbacks to those pieces of my life, and it’s in for a long time, I just, I’ll just deal with them. I’m gonna be a tough guy, I’ll deal with them. And what I’ve found over time is talking about him sharing those experiences, you find a lot more people that have been through similar situations, they can talk to the same things, they can talk about how they dealt with those feelings afterwards. We got to talk people in and it’s going to help a lot of people maybe save somebody’s life in a situation like this, and maybe help somebody’s mental state mental health post experience.

Rob Pickels  51:08

Yeah, I think you bring up a great point about talking after about things. I’d actually love to talk about talking before things. Yeah. And that is, you know, things that you can do to protect yourself and to protect other people. Always let somebody know where you’re going. And I know, and maybe this is me being a pigheaded guy, my wife would like ask me like, where are you writing? And I would, I’d be like, reluctant to tell her because it maybe it was because it made me feel like oh, well, that makes me feel like there’s the possibility that something could go wrong. You know what I mean? And if I make no big deal out of this, and here’s the thing, it was a crappy thing to do, right? I mean, it’s just not right. You know, let people know what your route is where you’re going, if you make a route on on Strava, map, my ride or whatever, you can easily share an email that to somebody. And that’s great, that’s potentially important. Turn on tracking, all the major devices, Garmin Wahoo, whatever else, you can send a tracking link to people. If you frequently ride in a place without cell service, then get a GPS tracking device, they’re really not that expensive. They go on sale at REI, there’s a little bit of a subscription, I only have my subscription active for certain times of the year. I don’t have it active in the winter when I’m not using it. But I have used that device, I’ve been behind schedule, I use that device to let my wife know I was going to be late. Sure, during this incident on Saturday, I didn’t have to use it for the emergency. But it gave me the ability to text somebody, even though there was no service. Right? So those things are important. The other thing is, and this is something that I think you need to talk about, if you have concerns about your own health, get it checked out, go see someone if you have a recurring chest pain, if you have we all get heartburn, right. But if you get heartburn going up every hill that you’re climbing, it’s not heartburn, let’s be honest here, go see a doctor if your heart kind of beats abnormally, if you’re looking down at your heartrate monitor, and it’s giving you these weird numbers, they might, you know, might not be your heart rate monitor, you might not be the telephone wire that’s next to you, it could actually be your heart.

Trevor Connor  53:17

The biggest one is fatigue. Yeah, if you’re going up a hill and just go on, I can’t put out my normal water chair, I don’t understand why that is a big sign global fatigue.

Grant Holicky  53:27

Right, as you were saying earlier, right? Not just legs. You know, we talked about it on this Chris case, obviously Ms. Well versed in this. But these are hidden things for a reason know your genetic history, know your family history. If you’re over 40 Cookie, your heart to look at, then it’s not going to take that much. And it is going to be great for your peace of mind, your family’s peace of mind. And it might catch something that you didn’t see grasp.

Rob Pickels  53:56

Yeah. And encourage the same of your writing partners to you know, you got you’re all in this together for what it’s worth, you know, be diligent be protective of the people around you just as they should be for you know, for you as an individual. You know, the last thing that I want to touch on because I think that this is another area that’s potentially important. And Trevor, you had a prior prior to me and grant really being regulars on the show you had a great heat illness, you know, that covers a lot of this information. I do encourage people to go back and look at that. But if you are riding in a hot environment with someone and try to be cognizant of this for yourself, but it’s very difficult when you’re the person So be cognizant of it and people that you’re riding with, if you notice again, heavy fatigue, if somebody is confused if they have dizziness or fainting, they’re showing signs of this heat illness. You almost have to force them to do the right thing because they’re gonna say, oh, no, I’m fine. I’m just a little tired. I just I need a little bit more water. They’re going to downplay it. You Have to take command of this person, right we

Trevor Connor  55:02

talked about in that episode. It’s amazing how quickly they go off the rails he went from. He was a little tired, but he was fine to lying on the ground unable to move.

Rob Pickels  55:12

Yep. So in that situation again, number one, check the scene for safety, right, we got to be safe before we do anything. If somebody is suffering from what you think is a heat related illness, get off any extra clothing that you can, and also move that person to a shaded area. If possible, get their legs above their heart to help improve venous return. Try to replace fluids in them small frequent sips, but if they’re vomiting, don’t keep trying to pour water down their throat, right. Don’t do that. If they’re unconscious, do not pour anything in their mouth. Most important, though, to cool them off, get them wet, and keep them wet. If you’re near a river, I don’t know that you should submerge them, but it’s a good source of water to keep them wet. But that is going to help cool people. And if you have to pour scratch on them, and they’re gonna get sticky and salty then great, do it, use whatever you have. That’s gonna be one of the quickest ways that you can to help cool that person off, which is hugely important.

Trevor Connor  56:08

Well, guys, I think it’s time to wrap up here. So hope you enjoyed the conversation. Who wants to do the outro here?

Grant Holicky  56:15

I don’t like me, I don’t hear. Hey, thanks for coming, everybody. Yeah.

Rob Pickels  56:21

Yeah, you know, I think the big thing you know, for everybody out there listening is this. These are conversations among grant Trevor and myself, but we also want them to be conversations among everyone else. So if you have things to add if you have things that you want to just get out cathartically into the universe like like Grant is saying, then then reach us you know at forums dot fast talk labs.com If you don’t want to do that, then then there’s Twitter and there’s email and there’s everything else but we want to continue these conversations with everybody listening. So that was another episode of Fast Talk.

Trevor Connor  56:54

Subscribe to Fast Talk wherever you prefer to find your favorite podcasts. I had a right in front of me.

Rob Pickels  56:59

Whoa, he has it in front of him!

Trevor Connor  57:01

Be sure to leave us a rating and a review. The thoughts and opinions expressed some Fast Talk are those of the individual. As always, we’d love your feedback. Join the conversation at forums.fasttalklabs.com. To discuss each and every episode – Rob is making noises while I’m doing this – become a member of Fast Talk Laboratories at fasttalklabs.com/join and become a part of the education and coaching community. This has been a horrible read, for Grant Holicky, Rob Pickels –

Grant Holicky  57:30

– and the Canadian education system, Trevor Connor.

Trevor Connor  57:34

Thanks for listening!