Our hosts talk about why we shouldn’t believe that more is always better, how to build a weekly time trial series into your training, and what research we’d like to see conducted.
Episode Transcript
Trevor Connor 00:00
Music. Hello and welcome to fast talk. Your source for fantastic music.
Rob Pickels 00:10
Maybe if you did the countdown in Spanish before this, you would actually get the slogan right.
Trevor Connor 00:16
I could do French. Try it actually. The truth of the matter is, I don’t remember a single bit of French. Aren’t you Canadian? Don’t you have to know French when I graduate. So at the end of grade 13, I was bilingual. At the end of grade three, yeah, it takes you 13 years. Well, it does, yeah. By the time I went anywhere where I could use my French, which was like 20 years later, I couldn’t speak a word. Really, I had forgotten it all well, 20 years,
Rob Pickels 00:46
wait back to this grade 13 thing. Do you start a year early or finish a year late?
Trevor Connor 00:50
No, you finish your late. So back then you’re 19 when you finish. Our colleges were three year. You did an extra year of high school, which is basically the equivalent to your freshman year, and then you do three years of college. But I came to college down the state, so I did an extra year that was basically college level in high school, and then came down to the states and had to redo it. But did
Rob Pickels 01:12
you play beer pong? Yes, okay, so I guess it was equivalent to your freshman year, and you played like the thunder AC, DC, yeah, we
Grant Holicky 01:22
didn’t have beer pong when I was in college. I’m too old for that. No, we didn’t play beer pong in college. Who was the toga movie?
Griffin McMath 01:27
They had it and you are younger. No, that’s
Trevor Connor 01:30
not, that’s like we played. No, they didn’t play beer pong in that movie. Did they? They did a lot of other stuff. They did a lot of things, but not beer pong. We would
Grant Holicky 01:38
play ping pong with beer cups on the table and have to hit the beer cup with a paddled Oh, yeah, there you go. That’s what we did. That’s
Griffin McMath 01:49
old school. Apparently, when you had to walk a mile in the snow to get to school, I’ll pill both ways.
Grant Holicky 01:54
But I went to school in Virginia, so there wasn’t any snow.
Trevor Connor 01:58
I grew up in Canada. I grew up in upstate New School, yeah, Europe state New York, we went to school uphill, both ways in the snow. Yeah, you really
Grant Holicky 02:05
could pull it off. Actually, you could go to school uphill and back from school, and it was always snowing, so you could do it. So the natural segue here
Trevor Connor 02:13
we are starting this recording. What 30 minutes late because we were listening to creed. Weezer, we’re listening to creed and Nickelback. So I’ve got our forum question for this episode, creed, Nickelback. Weezer. Wow, greatest bands ever, or just great bands. I
Griffin McMath 02:32
really am not okay with Weezer being lumped into this. Why?
Speaker 1 02:36
Because Weezer is good. Weezer is so different than nickel my voice, can handle this
Trevor Connor 02:41
really important. We are recording, April 30, five days ago, Billy Idol released a new album. I don’t even know what to say about that.
Griffin McMath 02:49
I know. I’m
Rob Pickels 02:50
sure as much as I dislike creed and Nickelback Weezer is decent. I’m sure this Billy Idol album is worse than all of them, and I see that as somebody who enjoys Billy, idols, music,
Griffin McMath 03:02
I’m gonna reserve comment because I’d like for people to live out their dreams till their last days, including you, John and you want to get out,
Grant Holicky 03:11
implying that I’m on my last days. I saw
Speaker 1 03:13
how you logged in today. And I’m just saying, holy, I’m just
Trevor Connor 03:18
kidding, holy, oh, shall we get started? I want to leave. I
Griffin McMath 03:22
was told recently by those who edit our audio that I get a lot of flack, so I came in hot today ready to suck it back, give
Trevor Connor 03:30
some flack. Yeah, we’re ready for this fine
Grant Holicky 03:33
line between gentle ribbing and just being mean.
Trevor Connor 03:35
And there’s our setup. Brent, you have a question?
Grant Holicky 03:43
Yeah, I did, but now I want to contemplate death anyway. Yeah. So my question is, as athletes or coaches of athletes, or people who just are athletic, especially in the endurance world, we have this tendency to want to do more, and whether that’s more volume, whether that’s more intensity, whether that’s more racing, whether whatever that is that more tends to define that. So how do you guys deal with your athletes, with yourselves, with your peers? How do you deal with that more epidemic? Because we’ve got to try to pull it back right in order to have success. There’s places where more is better, but not most places, do you have to pull it back to have success? Oh, absolutely. Isn’t
Griffin McMath 04:27
that the essence of being an athlete is pushing not
Grant Holicky 04:31
being broken is the essence of being a successful athlete. Though, where does one end and the other begin? That’s part of this question, I think, is trying to define for somebody where one ends and where another begins, where does more stop being beneficial and start being plateauing or detrimental?
Rob Pickels 04:50
So it’s interesting. I listen to other podcasts outside of this, and people should, because everybody needs a breath of opinion and knowledge, in my opinion. So this other podcast I was listening. Listening to, it’s called the High Performance podcast, and they have a lot of Formula One drivers on there, and I love the sport of Formula One. And the one I was listening to recently was with this driver, George Russell, and he fought to sort of make his way into Formula One, but he did so onto a team that was the worst team in Formula One, and no matter how hard he or his teammate drove, they were always finishing 19th and 20th last on the grid, that cars were just zooming by him, right? And in a lot of aspects, that was very disappointing for him. But what he started to do was, okay, well, I was a second behind 17th or 18th place, and this time I was only a half a second behind 18th place. And so those small wins, but where this becomes really relevant is this, George was also the reserve driver for the very best team in Formula One, and Lewis Hamilton, at the time, got sick with COVID. And so George got called up into Mercedes to race for a weekend, and he qualified second on the grid, like two hundredths of a second, behind the pole sitter, and he was so disappointed that he wasn’t pole, right? So he had essentially the most amazing thing you could have ever expected. And it didn’t matter, because we all want more. We all want pole, then we want a race win, then we want a world championship. And what happens if you win the world championship? You got to win 10 world championships, and at what point are you satisfied? And I think that’s a big part of what you’re asking here. Yeah, and
Grant Holicky 06:27
you can look at it from two different perspectives. Right, from the results perspective, there’s some great studies on what the quest for greatness actually is. In the layman, the general public, thinks it’s the gold medal, and if it’s the gold medal, that’s what you fall into. I need another gold medal, and I need another gold medal, and it’s usually followed by depression in some way, shape or form. If that quest becomes the very epitome of what you can produce as an athlete and as a person, then that changes. Because you’re always striving, you’re always moving forward. You’re always trying to be better, but at the same time, you’re up against perfection. And I’ll say this right now, if you consider yourself a perfectionist, you’re setting yourself up for failure, period. There’s no way around it. From a results point of view, how do we protect against that? But even from very practical point of view, we’ve all had athletes that, okay, I did a 20 hour week. Shouldn’t we do another bigger one? And to rob to your point, I’ve had athletes that we’ve gone a huge stretch week. We’re gonna do a 25 hour week. We’re gonna try to simulate a stage race. We’re going all in. They get done with it, they’re cashed, they are boxed, they’re toast. And two days later, okay, should we try for 27 No, that was a huge extension. We don’t need to go beyond that.
Rob Pickels 07:44
Yeah, I’ll say too. I think that we experience this in my wife primarily races 10,000 meters. And people ask, do you ever think you’re gonna race a marathon? Yeah, like, that is intrinsically better because it’s a longer distance. Let’s
Grant Holicky 07:58
not get into the American bastardization of sport when
Trevor Connor 08:01
it comes to the training. I think the important thing to remember here is the goal is not the training. The goal is the improvements, the adaptation. An easy way to look at this is, if you are doing a manageable training level and you are seeing adaptations, you don’t need more.
Grant Holicky 08:18
Yeah, I remember saying this a lot is people would take that jump and they’d go, what now, Neil would say this, and I said this a lot. We keep doing the same thing, like we do this over and over again. There’s some things we’re going to tweak, but love the plateau. One of the people I work with at Adams who’s been on this show, Dr zuluger, he said, I hate that phrase. Love the grind, because the grind implies that it sucks. But that idea of the plateau, you do have to love the plateau, because you’re going to get to a long period of time where things don’t get better.
Griffin McMath 08:52
I think the love of the plateau is such a great discomfort a lot of people need to address. You have to address, I would say, like the absence of craving the high. And I think that’s an addiction. So when we talk about all the different things we get out of the addiction of insert blank, but athletes, I think are especially susceptible to these physical cues of deprivation or exhaustion or depletion or kind of tunnel vision when they push themselves so hard that when that becomes the desire, or if I don’t have this, then I’m not pushing myself hard enough. It’s like weird comparison, but the person who doesn’t think they’re full until they have a stomach ache, like, if I haven’t gone so far, yeah, if I don’t understand that, satiety doesn’t have to mean going past a certain point, and if that’s satiety with your sport or something else, but if there is this propensity to chase this high, this addiction, and the idea of a plateau is absolutely terrifying to someone, then that’s when you know you need to stop. Need to reevaluate. Well, there’s so
Grant Holicky 09:55
much of that goes on in life too, right? You strive in life to the next job or. So you get married to you have kids, and then you get to this place, well, I’ll speak for myself, but you have kids, you’re established in your career, and you’re raising kids. There’s a huge degree of plateau there. And if you don’t really double down on enjoying day in and day out, it’s a struggle, you start to really grind through those years. And you’ll talk to parent after parent who are like, oh, man, it happened super fast. It happened so fast. There are teenagers before you know it. And I feel like you got to try to find ways to slow that down. And to me, slowing that down, whether it’s as an athlete or as a person, is right here right now. Enjoy what I’m doing, even if it’s not the next thing and the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. Yeah,
Rob Pickels 10:40
I think one way, you know, to tackle this in an actionable way is to just immediately try to remove the intrinsic assumed value that more is better, and when you are up against this, while I did this one thing, what’s the next bigger thing I can do? Maybe to take a step back and say, Why do I want to do something bigger? If it’s because you’re more fit and because you can handle something bigger than awesome, that’s progress. If you did just start out racing a 5k and now you want to race a 10k because you have the fitness to do. So perfect. That’s great progression. If we are in this thing where it’s, well, I just rode across the US, and now I’m going to ride across Asia, or it’s, you know, 25 hour, 30 hour, 35 hour training week, or whatever else, then you do need to begin thinking about this in more of an intellectual manner and understanding what’s the drive to do more? Is this the best practice to move forward? And if it is, then great sometimes more is exactly what you ought to do. Most of the time. It’s not what I
Trevor Connor 11:38
do with my athletes. I give them a recovery scale on the one to five. So we set a recovery goal for each week, and I have them assess each week. And the way it works is three. That in between is you did some good, hard training. You feel like you got something to accomplish that week. But if I asked you to do a week like that, week in, week out. And definitely you could do it the next three months. And then four is, I could do maybe three weeks like that, but I’m fatiguing. And five is, I need a rest, I’m toast. And then two is the fatigue. And one is you’re cooked, yeah? Four is you’re feeling pretty recovered. And five as you sat on the beach all week, right? So I set a recovery goal for every week, and I would say 80, 85% of the weeks with my athletes are three. Then we have some four weeks every you know, every once while we’ll have a five week, or, sorry, two weeks. Everyone’s why have a one, right? Every once while we have a one. But if I give them one week that’s followed with a five, you’re off the bike. And I think what you’re getting at that I see athletes do is every week is a two. There’s some one sprinkled in there, and they’re just cooking themselves. And they never go to the other side well or
Grant Holicky 12:46
from the other extent. No matter what we write, they’re gonna call it a three. I can do this again. I can do this again. I can do this again. And I think that’s what I see a lot of in the trend. And I made this comment earlier about Americans, we like to lengthen everything. We took mountain biking, we invented mountain biking, and we came up with long distance mountain biking. Meanwhile, Europe turned it into a lapped race that you can watch that’s super fun, and they get spectators out of it. We’ve done it with gravel. We created gravel. Longer is better. Europeans are creating it in a place where it’s watchable. We did it with triathlon. Moved it to Ironman. So there’s this propensity to push everything further in the US, harder is better. The American Dream, yeah? And we watch it with how people train. I watch it in swimming, you watch it in running, you watch it in riding, oh, one of the biggest places you see it is nutrition, yeah, one way or the other, right? This nutrients good for you. Let’s take a mega dose supplement of
Trevor Connor 13:41
it, then I’m gonna be Superman,
Grant Holicky 13:42
right? But you see it across the board, and what you watch is that the well roundedness of an athlete gets paired off, yeah. So they can only do lead, though, or they can only do Iron Man, because they don’t have the speed to do the shorter stuff. So that pushes them to do more, and it pushes them to do more volume. And it’s a very interesting trend in my mind, and that’s why I brought this up. And I think that’s an interesting way to do it. My concern would be Trevor that a lot of athletes write a three, so
Trevor Connor 14:11
this is part of the education with every new athlete that I work with is
Grant Holicky 14:15
little moron. That’s not a three, it’s a one, right?
Trevor Connor 14:19
And I will challenge him on that. I’ll have an athlete. I give them a three week. You can tell just by looking at what they did of that’s not a three week. Then you’ll hit them with that. And they go, yeah, no, it was a three. And I go, let’s repeat that. Next week, isn’t your be able to do that yeah? And the week after Yeah, and the week after that, with every athlete I work with, when they finally get good at understanding what is a three, what is a two, what is a four we start seeing progress. Yeah,
Grant Holicky 14:41
yeah. I think that’s interesting, because I used to see it. I know I bring up swimming a lot, but it’s where I spent a lot of my career, and I used to see it in swimming with 5am practices. There are teams that would have people doing four, 5am practices a week. They’re doing 10 workouts a week, and they’re getting ready for a two minute. Race like, how do we need this kind of volume? And I still stand there looking at run training, and I’m blown away that people that are running the mile and the 5k are running 100 miles a week, and people are still trying to do that. I’ve never really been able to put two and two together on it. Now there’s efficiency of form. I know there’s some of those things and getting the body to take that pounding, I know there’s those things, but it just seems like we tend to more. I think that
Griffin McMath 15:25
idea too, of the specializing and further specializing that niching down in sport, I think about how this quote is only in the last couple of years where I feel like there’s this resurgence of people going, you’re actually getting a quote wrong. But the whole a jack of all trades is a master of none. Quote becoming so prevalent for so long without recognizing that the whole quote is a jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one. And I think that when it comes to that in sport, we forget that last half of the original quote, and then you see when someone gets out of balance. And I remember treating an athlete when I first had graduated, and the athlete at the time didn’t have a coach in this new sport that they were in, in cycling, but had a professional career as an athlete for most of their life prior, and had completely different support. So now that they were into cycling, they had no coach. They had no other touch point other than I think me to talk about some of these things, and didn’t really have a sense of community. And I was watching this happen where the specialization in this craving for more, this craving for constant improvement, allowed no space for plateau, and I could only say so much to this athlete at the time, from the perspective of why they were seeing me as a patient, I couldn’t stop and say, Hey, what’s going on? I think it’s one of the reasons why people need a coach, or if they’re in a community, that they can talk about what they’re doing and why, otherwise, where’s that checks and balance going to come from? You bring
Grant Holicky 16:53
up a really interesting point about specialization, because I don’t know if you see it with your kids, I see it with mine. Mine play four or five different sports. One of the sports they play is lacrosse, and they like it. They’re okay at it, but there’s some kids out there that they’re nine, and that’s the only sport they play. They’re all in. They have private coaches, they have all of this stuff, and they’re amazing at nine, they’re literally running circles around my son, yep. And we played some teams this year, and our kids lacrosse team’s okay. They’re losing like 13 nothing. And this is the B team in Boulder. The A Team in Boulder is in a higher League, and we’re like, that team in the higher League, they’ve got kids, former d1 players, former professional players. You watch these kids play, and you’re like, That kid’s amazing. They’re getting blown out 13, nothing. Yeah, and you start going, what are we getting out of this? How narrow is this path becoming, and is this what we want that kid to be at 13? Because they’re going to be done at some point. Because if somebody’s finally better than them, they’re out. So what I found
Trevor Connor 17:59
really interesting, we did that episode recently on the Norwegian method. And so I did read the book Getting ready for the episode. And Norway absolutely has had huge sporting success. You look at for a country of 5.5 million, yeah, it’s on the number of Olympic medals they have. And they have laws in Norway that, I think, is until kids are 13, you can’t take sports seriously, like they do tons of sports, but it needs to be fun, yeah? And that getting them into the leagues and basically professional level coaching and getting them focused on a single sport that’s like, literally against the law in Norway,
Grant Holicky 18:35
yeah? And there’s reasons for it. What it does to a kid’s psyche is incredible, but I watch it happen more and more with Masters athletes and their psyche, they’re so defined by their success of that one thing, and that’s why I think I watch a lot of them want to do more, because it’s the only thing they can control. If I can add things to this, I’m in control, and maybe I can do it better, and that’s some of the food thing too, right? Like, where do I control this? And it’s the more it’s, the more intensity it’s, the more time and all of those things, and they’re really getting away from that broad spectrum definition of who they are. I think that the
Rob Pickels 19:10
conversation is going a little bit different than the direction you initially intended. But this is so important that I want to bring this up. I had an athlete that I was working with a junior cyclist, and I’m saying this to parents, please listen to this. We can have every good intention in the world and not know when we are and aren’t doing something. And something that she brought up, and something that was very difficult for her was the non verbal cues of when she did well and when she didn’t do well, when her parents approved and when they didn’t approve. That’s how does the parent interact with their child, with the athlete? Do you go to that restaurant on the way home because you won? And I get you’re trying to celebrate, but what happens when you don’t go to that? You’re telling them you didn’t do a good job today? Yeah, so just be mindful of these non verbals. In addition,
Griffin McMath 19:58
I actually think that does in a way. Answer your question, because if you set up this type of relationship early on, then you’re not necessarily going to have the likelihood of the athlete who can’t handle the plateaus or the something else.
Grant Holicky 20:12
We do it across the board. We do it in school. We do it in all those things. And I think probably get in trouble with this from some other psychologists, but I will turn to my kids and say, in high school, I do expect days, because it’s high school, and if you put the work in, you can get that done. So again, it comes back to that idea of work. But start getting into college, trade school, some of those other things, you progress and you go to the things that you love and where the passion is typically, the success comes and the interest comes, and you see it in Sport all the time. You see these kids. I remember watching kids come over to my team, and they were toast. And I remember looking at them, and I said, Are you sick of your sport, or are you sick of the environment that you’re competing in? And nine times out of 10, I tear I’m sick of the environment I’m competing in. I’m not sick of the sport, so that the whole job was change the environment. I can’t tell you how much flak I would get still get from turning a road biker into a mountain biker, briefly. One of the best examples of this is something that Neil did with flora. She raced bikes for cu for a long time. It was a way to give her some other degree of success, something outside of triathlon, so she wasn’t defined solely by triathlon, right? I think that went really well, and I think that’s a big key. Over and over again, I would say there’s one thing I had an athlete say to me recently they wanted to switch and try something else, and it was incredibly intuitive statement where they said, I love the progression of learning, that progression of getting so good so fast, that something that you can only get when you do something new. Now, I get the downside of that too, right, that you’re constantly switching, but it feeds the soul a little bit well.
Trevor Connor 21:54
I think we need to move on to our next question. But going back to original question about is more better? I would go with no. We have been doing more and more episodes of these potlucks, and we started this one with Billy Idol, more is not better.
Grant Holicky 22:10
All right. Well said.
Trevor Connor 22:14
So I guess it’s time for my question. I wanted to come up with something that’s a little bit different. As you guys know, I’ve been doing a weekly time trial series, and when I was getting ready to register for it, I did a search on the USAC website for Time Trial series because I couldn’t remember the name. Wow, thank you. And I’m horrible with names, I admit it, but I was surprised to see the number of weekly time trial series around the country. It seems to be a popular thing, so I thought it’d be worth a conversation. And I’m not asking this rhetorically, because Neil Henderson is still kicking my butt. So my question to the two coaches
Grant Holicky 22:51
here, I feel like all your questions are about how to get you faster.
Trevor Connor 22:58
My questions from the potluck. So if somebody’s gonna do a time trial series, how do you prepare? What are your recommendations? So
Rob Pickels 23:04
in my opinion, the very absolute first thing you have to do is understand the context of this weekly time trial series. In the bigger picture, I have athletes that do stuff like this, and it is their a race, yeah, and I have other people that do it, and it’s a C priority. And I think that needs to be established very early on, so that you can approach it in the correct thing. What I think you’re saying, Trevor, is that this is an a race for you. I’m
Trevor Connor 23:34
saying this was a C race for me. And then Neil Henderson started. Now it’s become the B plus A,
Rob Pickels 23:41
okay, to put that into context, one of my favorite cycling pictures of all. Times the British do some pretty incredible weekly time trial series. They’re well known for it. And I have this picture that it’s a weekly time trial series, and it’s this guy, I don’t know. He’s a normal bloke. He’s a little overweight. He’s got a time trial helmet on. He’s got a disc wheel. And then right behind him is Bradley Wiggins in full, like INEOS, or what I forgot his guy at the time kit and everything else. And as these two guys are here looking to crush souls,
Grant Holicky 24:17
it’s amazing. I think Rob’s really correct in terms of where does it fit in the calendar? I think there’s ways around the Trevor’s of the world where it’s, well, it’s a C race, but, like, I really, really, really want to do well, so how do I do well? And I’ve always used that TT series as a type of workout, right? Racing is phenomenal training, and that’s always missed. We were at tour of the Gila last weekend, and people come out of tour of the Gila and they’re like, Okay, where do I get some volume in? What are you talking about? Man, we just did a five day stage race, but I feel like you need to train. Well, what do you think? What do you think that was? Look at your TSS and your numbers and stuff. But it isn’t, quote, unquote, training. So it doesn’t necessarily feel like training. And so how do you build that in? I like to do that progression of a neuromuscular day into a interval day into a base day. I really enjoy that. So cadence worker sprints and then into threshold work, or vo two work and then into a base day. So if that Wednesday, TT series, so doing some cadence work. On Tuesday, it’ll get the heart rate up. It’s a great opener day after a day off. And then Wednesday, you’re gonna have a warm up, and you’re gonna have a TT effort. That’s a pretty good day. And then we roll into a Thursday base day, and then Friday becomes the easy day. So just shifting the calendar slightly so where we normally would do that three day block over Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Now we’re doing it Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Maybe the volume’s down because they’re working, and that shifts some things, but you can really incorporate it as one of the workouts. But the other thing that we’re doing, in that sense, is giving them a really good chance to perform there too, right? So I think a lot of people look at it as I need to target this race, or I need to train through this race. I hate that phrase, training through a race, because I don’t even really know what that means. But there are ways to utilize the training to showcase that effort and get a lot out of it. From a training point of view,
Rob Pickels 26:18
in my opinion, if something like this is a performance focus. What I will almost guarantee you is that physiologically, you’re stronger than Neil. Nothing personal. I know Neil. I know his physiology. I know what he’s really good at. I know where his strengths and weaknesses are, great guy, great athlete and everything else. But I also know that one of Neil’s strengths is in the optimization.
Trevor Connor 26:43
With this, he tells me his average power because he knows he’s always 50 watts less, and then laughs exactly, but a minute faster. And
Rob Pickels 26:49
that’s where I’m going. If you want to beat Neil, you have to optimize your setup and everyone out there. If some guy is just throttling you day in, or some girl is throttling you day in and day out, and you know that you should be beating them. And you can’t figure out why there is something in their setup, their equipment, or whatever else that is better than yours. And you’ve made a poor choice, and you got to figure out what your poor choice, your Vittoria, Rubino, whatever tires, Trevor, with your butyl tubes need to go. He’s
Grant Holicky 27:24
ripping Gator skin. To me, exactly. There’s an amazing picture. Years ago we did a team TT, when we were all on the VIX team, and it was myself, Neil, I think Mike Souther and Curtis lesation, the former Senators hockey player, yeah, and Curtis and I look like we might as well just be on our hoods. You’re so high up in the bars. Whole chess showing and Neil’s position for the time was like he looked like today. He’s tucked in. You couldn’t see anything. And there’s this two giants of men in front of him and me and Curtis and Neil, honestly, really wasn’t any smaller than us at the time. He just looked a lot smaller than us. And that’s part of the draw that I think these weekly TT series is, too, is you can go in with this really clear idea of what your PB is, and then make some adjustments and see if you can go faster with the same wattage. It’s almost an opportunity to do aerodynamic testing. Yeah,
Rob Pickels 28:26
definitely. But it goes back to that thing of more, what is success in this? TT, is it? I want to make no changes and I want to get faster, right? That’s sort of a micro success. And so some people can say, hey, I went 15 seconds faster. It doesn’t matter if I won or not. I was DFL, but I’m on an old steel bike with friction shifters and whatever else, and I got better. There are other people that maybe they say, Hey, I want to use this to optimize my equipment, and I want to go 15 seconds faster and go no harder, do no more Watts than I did before. That becomes the more more more conversation of, how do we say, what is better in this moment? Which Trevor to go back to your thing. I honestly think my answer to you has nothing to do with training. It has nothing to do with what do you do two days before the thing, and it has everything to do with how do you make yourself more efficient, moving through the air, moving over the ground, and what sources of friction are slowing you down. I would
Grant Holicky 29:29
even draw that out to off the bike. This whole idea of is
Rob Pickels 29:33
Aero. It’s filling in, it’s filling in that negative space. It’s a fairing. It’s a fairing, right,
Grant Holicky 29:39
right? Oh, man, you want to get into that? We could talk about the ice socks down the chest as the ferry, but I do think it’s really interesting, especially for these midweek series, is the off the bike stuff becomes really interesting too. Are you eating at the right time before this? TT, in the afternoon, after you’ve been at work all day, did you get a little more? Running, spinning. There’s a lot of these little pieces of the puzzle that I think maybe they’re actually macro adjustments, far before micro games. We’re talking about, can I change my pad position to get me a little bit more forward, to get me a little bit more aerodynamic? But this same person’s been at work all day. They didn’t eat lunch, they barely warmed up, and they’re rolling up to the Wednesday night TT and bum that they didn’t perform. Why can’t it be both? It can be both. I think that’s my point. I think there’s gains to be made across the board. But look at both sides of that coin, the macro and the micro, the simple and the complex. Because the TT things wild, just what a difference a true tailored setup to you can make Trevor.
Rob Pickels 30:43
What do you think it is? You’re no longer the athlete. You’re the coach. Oh, what would you tell yourself, look
Grant Holicky 30:50
objectively and solve yourself several evaluators.
Rob Pickels 30:52
So do you think you got an A today? Trevor or so?
Trevor Connor 30:57
He’s taking this quite seriously. No, I’m actually thinking it through. Because, as you pointed out, power is not bad. Yeah, the pace is not good. 222, 30.
Grant Holicky 31:06
So the way the pacing or the speed, speed,
Trevor Connor 31:10
speed, okay, speed is not good. So that’s the if I was stepping outside of myself, looking at myself as a coach, I would say, you haven’t been doing the time on the TT bike, to learn to hold the position well, to ride that bike, effectively, all the things that just come from spending time on the bike, and that would be my answer, is, need to be spending a lot more time on the bike.
Grant Holicky 31:35
Well, we just spent like 10 minutes on this. And you answered your own question, but
Trevor Connor 31:39
I have a second part to the question.
Grant Holicky 31:40
I had a follow up for you, though, yes. Do you find yourself out of the bars a lot? Do you find yourself on the horns, or are you able to stay in position a lot during the race? So
Trevor Connor 31:48
what I will say about me personally, and I just want to make sure that we’re keeping this broad for everybody who’s doing this sort of thing, I thought I had spent a lot of time on the TT bike leading up and the first week that I went to the time trial, the last three minutes, I had to get out of the position, so I was definitely struggling. Now I can hold it the whole time,
Grant Holicky 32:05
some of it’s about time in that position at load. Yes, right? And I think that was
Trevor Connor 32:09
the issue. I was spending time on the bike, but it was all easy, yeah. And
Rob Pickels 32:12
I do want to say, I know that you’re trying to keep this broad, right, but there’s never going to be a universal answer. I do think that it’s important to talk with the athlete, and we don’t have access to your data or whatever right now, but what is it for you that’s causing these then once we figure that out, then we make the plan, then we go backwards Exactly. So it does have to be individualized. That’s the only universal I think,
Grant Holicky 32:33
I think you’re right, and I will say this, what’s interesting is, one of the things I had a couple athletes come to me and say, as they put renewed focus on their TT efforts, this year, they’ve spent time on the TT bike, on the bike paths in Boulder just whipping it around. They’re not doing dumb stuff. They’re not hammering into blind corners and hoping nobody’s there, but just riding moderately paced on the curvy paths that are pretty open, that you can see, and spending time in the bars doing that, it’s significant. What those changes make depending on
Rob Pickels 33:07
the course, there is a technical component to handling ATT bike that a lot of people do not necessarily think about. And maybe that’s a crosswind, maybe that’s a fast downhill, maybe that’s a curving, winding course, or whatever it is, and you do need to be able to create speed in all of those situations and retain
Grant Holicky 33:28
speed. What’s your second part to this question now that we solved your problems? So
Trevor Connor 33:33
this is just interesting, as a coach looking at this, and I think this goes back to Rob’s question of, is this an a race or a C race? Yeah, so I think if it’s an a race, I already know my answer to the question, which is, focus on this and it is what it is. But if you’re doing this as a C race, how do you make sure this is actually something that’s beneficial? So I’ll give you again example of me. I tend to do my threshold work in the winter, right? And do my super high intensity work in the spring and the summer, but now I’m doing threshold work all the way till the middle of May, because this necessarily has to be sure why my workouts each week. So I’m taking that threshold work a lot longer, and I know that’s actually hurting me overall for the season.
Grant Holicky 34:16
I think one of the big things that I think we get into as coaches and athletes is that we have a schedule that we live by, and like we do our intervals at this part during the week, we do our long rides on the weekend, and it’s really hard to get people to change that. I think I’ve noted this before with my kids sports in the spring, my weekends are gone. Saturday’s lacrosse games. Sunday is I want to hang out with my family, so I’m actually moved to a five two schedule, where I’m five days on during the week, two days off over the weekend. I was really surprised how hard it was to get over the inertia of changing my schedule. This is what I’m used to. This is what I like to do. I’ve been doing this for months, and it was even a couple weeks ago. I’m like, why am I. Doing bass on Monday. Should be doing intervals on Monday, that’s when I’m rested. And so made another adjustment. So I do think, and Rob was mumbling this a second ago, you don’t necessarily have to give up on the VO two Max stuff. You’re just getting a threshold day as a compliment to that high end stuff. You just may have to shift around how you do it. So maybe Saturday becomes hard, intense intervals, or Sunday, when that normally would be a base day, or if it’s a C raise, there’s a whole nother way to do a block here, which is you go really hard, high intensity. Tuesday legs are gonna be a little toasty when you do the time trial on Wednesday, but great way to load yourself up and get the feeling of an even more, even bigger threshold day with that one effort, because you’re progressing through we always want to go from higher intensity to lower intensity. So you can use that in a block. Yeah,
Rob Pickels 35:56
exactly. And I think that’s where you have to come to the realization that there are different ways to play this card, not just the one, traditional one. And what I will say is, for me, in a C race, in my opinion, the result doesn’t necessarily matter. I think that we need to be okay with that, right? Obviously, you don’t want to show up and embarrass yourself, but you don’t necessarily have to do the thing that gets you the fastest possible time. And so what I’ll do a lot with athletes is, what do we want to work on in practice during this C race? Oftentimes, I think that athletes struggle with chunking during efforts. So oftentimes, that’s what a C race is. For me. It’s a three lap race or a four lap mountain bike race or whatever. We’re gonna go really hard all in for the whole first lap, and then each half lap after that. The first half lap is easy, the second half is doubly all in and athletes begin to learn that we do not have to just do a moderate effort from start to all the time, exactly, which is so daunting when you’re like, I have to go this hard for eight laps of a cyclocross race. No, you don’t. There’s places that you work hard, there’s places that you rest. I’m just saying. I use C races to teach people that while they’re out there in the competition, or maybe somebody doesn’t have great cornering skills. And so it’s like, okay, you know what we’re gonna do? We’re not gonna sprint out of every corner. We’re gonna enter each corner more moderately. I want you to break less and carry more speed. That is your definition of success for this race. You still want them to go fast. You still want them to do well, but you don’t want them to revert to their old ways. You want them to learn something from this. And so, Trevor, I’d say vo two. Why don’t you do vo two efforts during your time trial? Yeah.
Grant Holicky 37:39
And even it doesn’t even have to be 4020s but even that concept of I’m gonna go into this time trial, and then I’m going to be full gas, all out sprint for 20 seconds out of every single corner, and I’ll live with whatever the aftermath of that is. Going back to your point, Rob, that’s a great way to play around with getting away from a results based mindset is you give people these things that they can do during the race, they often stop thinking about the results. And you sometimes get athletes that absolutely light it up, and now you’ve got this eye opening experience, sometimes they just want to raise every race like that. You’re like, no, that’s not the trick. But that’s a great point, because this is especially great for a workout like an in and out, where you’re 120% for 30 seconds and then settle into threshold and then pop out. Because the fact that it’s a raise, even if you do a hard, high end effort, you’re not going to settle pretty easy. So with
Griffin McMath 38:33
all of these answers, does Neil Henderson has something to worry about next week? No, no. So ah,
Grant Holicky 38:43
again, we know Neil
Rob Pickels 38:44
Trevor slashing his tires. The
Trevor Connor 38:48
worst part of all this that I’ll finish with, and then we’ll go to Rob’s question. There are three of us in my category. It’s myself, Neil, and then a multi time national champion. He races it twice, once in our category, and then in the pro category, and he wins the pro category most of the
Rob Pickels 39:06
time. How long is this? TT, I forget, I’ve never done Cherry Creek. It’s about 22
Trevor Connor 39:10
minutes. Okay, 2122 fastest time of the day will usually be 1950 you
Rob Pickels 39:16
can break that into a great workout. In my opinion. It’s a great little block. Warm Up, cool down. Decent volume for the day. Solid, I’m here for it. Okay, well, I’m not actually, because I’ll never do it. But, oh, hell, you know what I mean. Happiest
Grant Holicky 39:27
day of my life is when I sold my TT back.
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Rob Pickels 40:01
All right, Rob, what’s your question? My question is about research. We discuss a lot of research. I think we utilize a lot of research, and I know that we have our opinions on research. I would love to hear your opinion on what research would you like to see? What research do you need to further your opinion or your practice, or to answer a question that you’re unsure of. And what I would love is for somebody to throw out a research topic, maybe how they look at it, and for the group to come together and say, oh, yeah, you know what, if you considered this, or, you know, how would we design this study? And ultimately, my hope is that there’s some like grad student out there that’s looking for a project and wants to take something like this on.
Griffin McMath 40:43
I would love the research that’s currently getting slashed for using certain words to not that’d be my base, my bare minimum, is rescuing existing research
Rob Pickels 40:52
real quick on that subject with the research that’s been cut. I listened to an interesting podcast the other day, you know about some of this research. People are like, oh, what does it even matter? And there was this research that was done looking at microbes that lived in the hot springs in Yellowstone. They found these microbes, they were able to live in this extremely hot environment. And then whatever the research was done, it got put on the shelf. And people were like, why did we pay for that? It was really dumb. Who gives a crap about these microbes? Well, lo and behold, PCR testing that people have probably all heard of because of COVID Now, it’s polymerase chain reaction. It basically amplifies DNA, and it’s something that I’m using in my Parkinson’s and stem cell study that relies very specifically on a polymerase that was discovered 20 or 30 years ago in Yellowstone and got put on a shelf that unlocked the ability to amplify this DNA, because you have to denature the DNA at high temperatures, and they needed a polymerase that was able to stand up to these high temperatures, which is very unusual, exactly, very rare. And that PCR testing has revolutionized how we think about DNA testing and everything else. And so these are ways in which this seemingly insignificant research ultimate, literally, ultimately changes the world. Wait,
Griffin McMath 42:09
I love this, and I really hope there’s some PhD student who’s at like, year five of six, thinking they’re about to burn out. What’s the point of this? Who hears that and remembers, I remember dating a PhD student many years ago who got to this point of absolute burnout, and was like, I don’t even see how this is going to get used. And I was like, that’s the point of this. Basic science research is to advance the conversation. You may not be alive when this gets used at some point, but it will absolutely have made a difference. And so I think the stuff that we talk about, we rarely think about all of the basic science research that’s been put on a shelf that will absolutely revolutionize something that an athlete eventually gets to use or to apply research absolutely keep going finish.
Trevor Connor 42:56
Which goes to the other point, because we were working on a book, and literally, the publishers of the book said, If a study was published before, think it was 2022 don’t put it in, which drove me nuts, because that research isn’t like music where it it’s gotta be cool anymore, exactly. Hey, I brought all the way back to usually, it’s the old research and the old music, that’s better. But there is old research out there that we have forgotten about that is revolutionary, that just hasn’t has time
Rob Pickels 43:28
Forget all that. New research, guys, new research. What do we want to do? The biggest
Grant Holicky 43:31
thing that I want to see is more applied research, more in the field research, less lab research, less like with Everything’s perfect. This is how you’re going to react to these. I’d love some of that research to be done on high level athletes. I don’t think we have a very good trove of information on high level athletes. We have a ton of information on quote, unquote, moderately trained individuals, and even well trained individuals that that standard is pretty low in the lab as compared to most of the people we’re trying to apply that to. I just think we function differently in the field, and this is a big part of my sports psychology piece coming out of what people do in a lab versus what they do in a field. I mean, you can take an athlete and try to give them a power test on a trainer, and then try to do it outside, and depending on that athlete, you’re going to get wildly different responses inside or outside. And I don’t know how much with our current research, we apply it necessarily the right way. Too
Rob Pickels 44:35
bad you were out riding with your athletes and not here in nine o’clock this morning when Trevor and I recorded an episode with Dr Michael Kennedy on applied research that may or may not come out before the people are listening to this episode
Trevor Connor 44:47
coming out probably a month or two after this. Okay,
Grant Holicky 44:49
fantastic. Keep down. I wasn’t invited. Yeah,
Rob Pickels 44:52
you were. No, I wasn’t. No, everybody’s always invited. Oh, I’m gonna
Grant Holicky 44:55
start crashing stuff. Hey guys. Figure with a six pack. Hey, we got a nutrition
Trevor Connor 45:04
my answer is very similar. We focus in the lab with controlled research on high intensity interval training, because it’s an easy thing to study in the lab. Yeah, a lot of the other types of training, particularly that long, slow volume, is much more observational, and when you’re talking about elite athletes, it tends to be case studies. And I would love to see some crossover of that. I would love to see more studies of interval work out in the field. But I would love which will never happen see some of that other type of training in the lab, because you’re just never going to get athletes to come in and do six hour rides slow trainer in a lab every week, and likewise, do studies on elite athletes where it is controlled, but again, you’re never going to get an elite athlete willing to forego their training plan to be part of a study. So it’s a wish list that’s never going to
Rob Pickels 45:57
happen. Dr Brent Ruby of University of Montana and Missoula has done some interesting like over training overload interventions, where he basically, like, locked people in a lab for weeks and weeks on end. But the logistics of that, the finding the subjects to do that is, is extremely difficult. But Trevor, I do think that you’re raising a very interesting point where we look at intervals, for instance, right? And in the laboratory, we’re so perfect, and we’re so prescribed, four by 10 minutes at 95% exactly of FTP, until you reach x kilojoules, or whatever else. You go up Lee Hill, and you’re starting to do some client, you’re never perfectly at that wattage, there is so many of these nuanced details that need to be elucidated that I do agree. I know I dropped big words. Do I need to explain that one to you? Grant I can Okay, thanks that. We need to figure out that now I can’t even think of other words because I’m trying not to use the big words. It’s important by
Grant Holicky 47:03
we need to do important stuff. That’s a great point. And pulling on this thread again, I was at Hilo last week, and it’s interesting. On inner loop, which is one of the stages, there’s two KOMs on it. The first one is this kind of rolly step wise up. And if you’ve ever ridden a group on that kind of climb. It goes really, really hard when it gets uphill, and then it eases off. It’s never sustained. The second kom is this wide open, four lane, huge shoulder highway with a steady grade start to finish. Those two climbs are climbed in so magnificently different ways that it was exposing athletes that are really good at one and really bad at another. And I think, and a lot of the trend that I see in training athletes is derived from laboratory research, so we get very exact in what we’re doing. And I found myself doing this, I’ve moved with some athletes to want a 20 minute effort. I want a 10 minute effort. I want a five minute effort. And I wanted to be sustained. And I just want you to go full gas up a climb, because I know that climb is going to dip and turn and change and vary, or even just these intervals have to be done on the flat how they feel in the big ring versus how they feel in the small ring are very different. And again, to Trevor’s point, I don’t know how you do that. I don’t know if that ever gets done, because there’s so many variables to it. There’s so many, too many in the end. Well,
Rob Pickels 48:32
this is something that Dr Seiler had asked us. It was probably like an offline conversation. I don’t think it was ever part of anything recorded, but he basically was like, there were a lot of different athletes out there with different strengths and weaknesses and physiological profiles. Do you train them differently? How do you know what somebody’s gonna respond to? You don’t I didn’t have an answer. I don’t know that. You know, and that could be an area for research.
Grant Holicky 48:56
It depends. It
Rob Pickels 48:57
depends. I What does it depend on? Lots
Grant Holicky 48:59
of things. You bring up a great point Seiler, who is brilliant. The guy’s a mad scientist in the lab, and he’s come up with so many of the things that we’re tethering training to, is the first person to come out and say, this is lab research. It’s not necessarily applicable to the real world for everybody, we found that four by eight is the best set of intervals we could possibly do in the lab, and the in the lab part is missed often. So I’ll
Trevor Connor 49:26
give you an example of what you’re talking about. One of my favorite workouts to give athletes, which is very similar to a four by eight, is using a hill climb, where you have a start spot and a finish button. And I always say you want it to be about an eight to 10 minute interval, right? And it’s the same idea where I tell the athletes, whatever your time is on the first interval, all subsequent intervals have to be within 1015 seconds. So you’re trying to hit the same time. And what you see is, when you do that first interval, fresh, you don’t really think about pacing yourself. So when you hit you. The steeper, straighter stretches, you hit them really hard. But when you’re going around the corners or levels off a bit, you kind of let the power disappear by that final interval, you can’t hit those steep, hard parts hard. So you’re finding the time by making sure you’re going through the corners better. By making sure when it levels off you keep the power on. It teaches you actually how to pace?
Grant Holicky 50:21
Yeah, this comes back to something you said six months ago, are we training for performance, or are we training for physiology? And what you’re laying out, Trevor, is, you’re training for performance. I was doing it when I was late on the way over here, like we hit a climb, and I hammered the climb, and then we got to a slight downhill, and I wasn’t going hard, and the guy I was riding with was like, why’d you come off the pace? Said, because the biggest time gain I’m gonna make is when I’m going the slowest. Now I got up to speed and I’m going faster, I can actually recover a little bit here. So the next time I get to a climb, I can hit it again. That’s one of those things you learn from real world pacing that you’re never going to learn in the lab. And when you’re in a follow car on a TT, that’s like 90% I think, of what you say, over the hill, crest the hill, get to speed, then rest. Get to speed, then rest. And so there’s a research topic, performance versus physiology in a real world. TT, so
Rob Pickels 51:13
if we want to go performance and physiology, I think that there’s a new topic out there right now that people are discussing, and that’s of durability. Yes, right? FTP was the gold standard for a very long time. But I think that when we discuss performance and physiology, oftentimes, in my opinion, physiological improvements lead to things like better FTP. But when I’m training for performance, we might not see any FTP gains at all, and yet, that person is getting faster and faster. And a lot of people will say, Well, that’s the durability component. But I don’t know that we have a lot of at least from a physiological standpoint. There’s other things that play in right? Yeah, but I don’t know that we have a good, true measure of, how do we define durability? Don’t we test durability? How do we compare durability?
Grant Holicky 51:58
We don’t, and I’ve watched World Tour teams evaluate younger riders with durability in mind, and I feel like they’re missing the boat, because they have a metric of I want to see this after this many KJS, and you’re dealing with younger athletes who haven’t done races longer than 130k or 140k so they can’t produce those KJS in a raised setting before an effort. Well, then go do it in training. Well, you’re not gonna see something valuable in training, because it’s not the same you don’t have the same pressure, you don’t have the same impetus, you don’t have the same things. And taking somebody who’s like, Okay, well, they’re 100 KJS less, and look, they did 800 watts for this minute, at the end of this stage, that should count for something, but because there isn’t really a true measure or something we can rely on, it’s really up to the whim of somebody who said, Well, I want a durable athlete. I want somebody who can do this after 150k but how do we evaluate a 17 year old or a 20 year old that’s never raised 150k and that’s really hard, and so I think finding a true measure of durability is would be a great research topic.
Rob Pickels 53:06
There’s a specific one I want to throw out there that might be a little bit spicy but important in this room, and that is all of these conversations that we’ve been having around high carbohydrate and the health implications of that, I don’t believe that we have seen any studies that have addressed this. And what I would love to see is if we take an athlete who eats an otherwise normal, healthy diet outside of competition, and we know what that is. It means they’re not eating Skittles, and we have complex carbohydrates. We’re primarily focused on vegetables and lean meats and stuff like that, and we add into that athlete’s diet high carbohydrate during times of activity. What do we see? And the reason that this is brought up is I was watching a trainer road podcast video that basically tried to say, like, hey, there’s no problem with this. It’s totally fine. And here’s all the proof as to why it’s totally fine. And it was a great conversation about, how do we interpret hemoglobin, a 1c in athletes. And it was nothing more than that. And if they think that it was the definitive conversation, they really missed the mark. Everybody should listen to it. It was very informative. I learned a lot, but it didn’t answer the question. And we are all saying, Well, I think this, and I my hypothesis is, and frankly, I don’t know there’s
Trevor Connor 54:34
been a DR, you can group study, one study that has touched on this, and you’re getting right to the key point, which is everybody says no impact in you, because it doesn’t spike your insulin when you’re training, so there’s no health consequences. But they actually did a study where they were looking at immune response and showed elevated CRP, elevated th, 17, not certain actually, about CRP, there were multiple markers, or the one. I really remember was elevated th 17, even in elite athletes when they were doing high carbohydrate during interval sessions. So I agree that it’s not definitive. Yeah, it’d be amazing research to do, yeah, but I think you’re spot on that. We don’t know the answer. We can’t say it has no impact on you. I
Rob Pickels 55:17
think that with all of the changes that we have seen in athlete fueling in the past few years. This is, in my opinion, the most important question of current sport science, and I would love for somebody, for multiple people. It can’t just be one study. We need 10 studies on this to help understand this question. You
Grant Holicky 55:39
just hit the nail on the head about so much of this too. I can’t remember where I was, but I might be on this podcast, or maybe on a different podcast. I noted a study, and somebody came back and they commented on it, like this study says that’s all wrong, or that it’s been proven that’s wrong. And I think that’s one of the other things too, is taking this in a different direction. I really like doing more of these studies that are looking at everything and coming to a conclusion about this. Is one of the biggest issues we have with science in this country, I think, is that everybody can find their research that proves what they want to be proven, and it’s really hard to come up with a consensus, because people get hammered when they try to come up with a consensus. But you’re right. We need 12 studies, 15 studies, 20 studies, and we need some actual stuff that’s not purely anecdotal, because you have so much anecdotal information about high carb right now that you have climbers that are doing no sugar in their diet. These are rock climbers absolutely no sugar in their diet, doing multi day climbs on gels, only gels because it’s light and it can fuel them because it’s rocket fuel when you’re not ingesting it most of the time. But what are the consequences of that? We don’t know.
Trevor Connor 56:56
Well, guys, I hate to say it, it’s been a good conversation. Went a little long with this one, but it was worth it. It’s not
Grant Holicky 57:02
long. They’re in the ballpark. We’re just a little late, like I was today, boulder on time. That’s what we are today. Boulder on time. Everybody who would like to do our outro? I think Griffin should do our outro. Oh, there we go.
Griffin McMath 57:17
This is you’re getting back at me for calling me old. Yes, at least we know what it is for. I’m gonna get out
Grant Holicky 57:23
of this chair and I’m gonna walk stooped over for about 510 steps, and then I’m gonna finally be able to straighten myself up. That doesn’t mean I’m old. That happens to
Trevor Connor 57:31
- My favorite part is, whenever you insult them for being old, I’m the oldest in the room, so by default,
Grant Holicky 57:37
not by a whole hell of a lot, though, it’s like a couple months, isn’t it? Well, older, you know, 51 I’m 53 about to turn 54 Oh, yeah, you’re old,
Griffin McMath 57:49
ancient. Well, all of that was another episode of fast talk. Subscribe to fast talk, or wherever you prefer, to find your favorite podcasts. Be sure to leave us a rating and a review the thoughts and opinions expressed on fast talk Are you reading? Those are the individual as always, we love your feedback. Join the conversation at forums dot fast talk labs.com or tweet at us if you’re still on Twitter and head to fast talk labs.com to get access to our endurance sports knowledge base coach continuing education, as well as our in person and remote athlete services for Griffin McMath, this is Trevor Connor Rob pickles.
Grant Holicky 58:35
This is I never knew Trevor sounded like that. Okay, Trevor, your voice sounds so much better. Oh, my
Trevor Connor 58:43
God, I did say that that way. Really messed that up. I was stuck at the intro. I got the outro down.
Griffin McMath 58:48
Okay? For Trevor Connor, Rob pickles, Grant hollike, I can’t do the way. You’re holishkee. I’m Griffin McMath, thanks for listening. You.
