In this week’s potluck episode, we discuss lessons learned from big events, the difference between over-under’s and true HIIT intervals, and whether all base training is made equal.
Episode Transcript
Trevor Connor 00:05
Hello. Welcome to Fast talk. Your source for the science of endurance performance,
Chris Case 00:09
say it like you mean it.
Trevor Connor 00:11
No, okay, I was confident that I’m like, is performance the right word it
Grant Holicky 00:16
is? Yes, it is. Don’t guess,
Trevor Connor 00:18
what is it doing? Right? Do
Rob Pickels 00:20
- You did do it. Come on. Do it. Another
Trevor Connor 00:22
source for the science of performance.
Rob Pickels 00:25
No, do it again.
Trevor Connor 00:28
Hello and welcome. Your source for the science of endurance performance. It’s close
Chris Case 00:36
enough. There we go.
Rob Pickels 00:38
Hey, guess what? Potluck? It’s a potluck. Actually, you know what? Can Chris do? It? I love Chris’s intro so good. Hey
Chris Case 00:46
everyone. Welcome to another episode of fast talk. Your source for the science of endurance performance. I’m your host, Chris case amongst a bunch of fools like
Rob Pickels 00:56
butter No, but God, you make me feel so good being a fool. Just listen. I could listen to this intro. You know what? I’m gonna listen to the first 10 seconds of every fast talk and just pause it after that.
Trevor Connor 01:07
So we had a theme for this episode. Really,
Grant Holicky 01:09
you’re trying to move on that we really So, okay, I gotta set
Trevor Connor 01:13
the stage. This was called the Griffin birthday episode because it’s her birthday in a couple days. Griffin sent us two questions she really wanted answered for her birthday episode, Griffin is sitting in an airport somewhere. She had to spend the night there. She is not joining us
Chris Case 01:29
and answering her questions.
Rob Pickels 01:32
Hello, Griffin. She could have
Chris Case 01:35
wherever she might be. She could have
Rob Pickels 01:36
went good car through the night. She could get
Grant Holicky 01:41
here. What air push in?
Chris Case 01:42
Yeah, I don’t even know. Denver
Grant Holicky 01:46
still waiting on an Uber. Where the heck is that guy?
Chris Case 01:51
I’m looking for the green Camry. Green Camry. Where is it?
Rob Pickels 01:55
889, do you see a license plate? 889,
Trevor Connor 01:59
so for all of you listeners, we don’t have Griffin here to keep us under control. If you want to stop now, please do. I don’t think that’s
Grant Holicky 02:05
really Griffin’s job. It’s not. I mean, she’s been part of the problem as much as part of the problem. Yes, we can. I think, I think without Griffin here, we can all be much more mature. We
Rob Pickels 02:19
probably can.
Chris Case 02:20
It’s like a flock of seagulls color over there, yep.
Rob Pickels 02:25
Well, I’m close enough, you know, I can’t. How do you make a seat? You make a seagull sound. You can’t do it.
Chris Case 02:33
No, I’m not gonna try. I’ll do it. I’ll do it after the show.
Grant Holicky 02:38
Let my spirit carry me. Oh, God,
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Chris Case 03:04
So Chris, yes, yes, thank you. Happy to have you. You have a question. I do have a question. I want to know. We’ve all trained for a lot of events of various kinds in our life. We’re always sort of preparing for something or just finishing up something. And I want to know what it is that you’re either preparing for or just finished up, and what lesson you took from that, because I feel like we’ve all done this a very long time. We’re also still constantly learning stuff about ourselves and how to train and how to do it better, and nutrition, whatever aspect it is. So yeah, we can go around the room and just talk about an experience like that. Who wants to start grant?
Grant Holicky 03:48
I think I can look at this in kind of a bigger picture, more global thing. My kids are six and 10, almost seven and 10 now, and they play lacrosse and they swim, and they do all these things. And I’ve mentioned this kind of in passing on the podcast a couple times, but my weekends are gone. Every Saturday from beginning of April through the end of May, is lacrosse games, and there’s two of them playing now. So it’s not like, oh, we go for one, it’s four or five hours of driving, going to lacrosse games, driving home. I can’t train on the weekends anymore. I can barely race. So I think the biggest thing for me was looking at that and saying, Okay, I need to find ways to test myself, stay motivated, see what I’m doing, but I also need to change my training completely, because I can’t train on Saturday anymore, and then I turn around on Sunday. I don’t want to go on a five hour ride and not see my kid. So it was in two pieces this year. I changed to five days on two days off, so all the weekdays on, training wise, and the weekends off. But what blew me away and like, I’m a coach. I’ve done this for a long time. This should not be a shocker, but I was rolling out Monday was the day that I added something, because Monday was typically an easy day, right? So for a while there, for like, a month, month and a half, like, Okay, I’ll ride on Monday, but I’ll just ride base, and then I’m showing up on Tuesday, trying to do intervals, but often riding with athletes, which means the pace is way too high for me to do intervals. And then on Wednesday, I have my group ride with my athletes. And if certain guys show up the road, guys show up, they’re riding bass, and they’re 30 pounds lighter than me, and they’re riding bass at 252 6280, so if I’m riding in that group, I’m not riding base. But it took me embarrassingly long to realize that Monday needed to be my hardest day, because that’s the day I came in rested. And so I started doing a block like Monday via two Max work Tuesday, going on the stages group ride, or the former stage Pat Warner’s group ride that meets Tuesdays at noon, which is turned out Tuesday. Turned out Tuesday, solidly difficult, yes, and then show up on Wednesday for my group ride and listen in the back. I sit in the back. But throughout that long way to get to what I realized is I had forgotten how to go hard. I just flat out had forgotten what it was like to be fresh and go into a workout where I was truly going to hurt myself, and I was going to make a decision because I’m coaching myself, which it really makes it hard make a decision to just hurt myself. Yep, you could have a million reasons when you’re coaching yourself, why maybe you don’t do this, or don’t do that. Or I was doing great threshold work. I was doing great other stuff, but minute on, minute offs, just wasn’t doing them. You know, like these short, hard, 32nd efforts with 90 seconds rest, which I think are hugely important, just wasn’t doing them. I wasn’t going deep anymore. In the first couple times I went deep, it’s like, oh, wow, yeah, I forgot how to do this. This really, really hurts. And then suddenly it kind of made sense why my first lap and cross had gone downhill over the last two or three years. So, you know, it was less about an event, and there’s plenty of events, and there’s plenty of things that I think I learn every time I race. Yeah, right. So shifting that calendar. And what really struck me was a, how remarkably difficult it was to make that shift, and then B, how difficult it was to realign all of my training within that shift, because I was so used to doing it a certain way.
Rob Pickels 07:37
When you say remarkably difficult, do you mean logistically, do you mean emotionally?
Grant Holicky 07:42
I think all of those things not from doing the work. Once I got the schedules breaking, yeah, habits, once I got the schedule sorted, it was easy to do the work like was like, oh my god, I have great legs. I can actually do this work. But it’s more when you’ve been taking Monday’s easy for literally 20 years, it’s a complete change to then go, Oh, I’m gonna have to work out on Monday, and maybe I don’t, can’t get all of my programs done on Monday, because as a coach, I want to write all my programs on Monday.
Chris Case 08:13
I’m the one person in this room that isn’t a coach. But as I hear you say this, it sounds to me like spending 20 years with Mondays as your easy day sounds like a training plan plateau of sorts, and mixing it up is turning out to be a good thing for you,
Grant Holicky 08:29
certainly not hurting me. And I don’t know that that was necessarily a bad thing, because it’s kind of the way my life was rolling, and it let me do a bunch of other things. It did slow me down and transitioning to changing the Oh, Monday is an additional day, and I just, in my mind went, Oh, it’ll be base. And then coming around to the fact that, oh no, it’s not going to be bass, I got to go hard, because this is when I have good likes. This is when I have the capacity to do the work.
Rob Pickels 08:55
I don’t think I’ve ever gone hard on a Monday before that would feel very weird. It’s different. It’s just
Grant Holicky 08:59
different. It’s just really different. And to be there on a weekend when almost all of my peers are gonna go on some long, hard ride, like I’m getting notes from the road team I ride. I don’t race with them that often, but I’m on the group chat. We’re gonna do four hours today, or we’re gonna do this, oh, we’re gonna do that. I can’t do that right? Or I could, but I just wouldn’t see my fan. It’s not what I want to do. Yeah,
Chris Case 09:24
Trevor, what lesson Have you learned recently from an event that you may or may not have completed?
Trevor Connor 09:31
I learned that I am slow.
Chris Case 09:37
Everybody needs that lesson. Every once in
Trevor Connor 09:39
a while, your eyes opened a little bit. My lesson was Tobago last year, I have had this thoughts of, I’m going to get back to my old fitness level at Tobago. And I’ve had this thing. I’ve raced it 13 times now, but it’s all been in my 40s and 50s, and so every year that I go, you know, in the past, I’d always guest on teams, and. Every year, the teams would just look at me, you know, who’s the old guy, and the be really disrespectful to me the days before the race, going, Oh, we’re gonna have to carry this guy. Who is he? And never let it faze me, because I’m always like, first day of the race, I’m going to hand them their
Grant Holicky 10:17
and they will respect me quick, quick reminder, everyone Trevor races with anger,
Rob Pickels 10:21
yes, he does, fueled by spite. So
Trevor Connor 10:24
it was great when they’re disrespecting me. I’m like, I’m gonna make them pay for that, and I’d have a great couple first days, and then they would respect me. This year I went, they gave me the huge disrespect. Oh, we’re gonna have to carry those guys gonna be no use. And three days into the race, I’m like, Yeah, they were right. They were completely right. So what happened? I’m proud to say I was not the slowest guy in the race, but when the top dogs hit it and went hard, it was Bye, bye. I’ll be kind of in this middle group.
Rob Pickels 10:56
Is that age? Is that training? What’s different is that Trevor, I gotta ask publicly, is it because you have a girlfriend now?
Grant Holicky 11:05
Ooh, that’s why he’s wearing shirt.
Trevor Connor 11:09
The shirt is because of her. I’m not gonna argue without one be a gold chain. Honestly, I don’t want to bring a potluck down. Since I developed afib, my power has dropped substantially, and what I’ve noticed is I have an intolerance now to really high intensity. So
Rob Pickels 11:26
two over threshold, sort of, yeah,
Trevor Connor 11:29
so we hit a hill, and they’re, you know, going super hard for three, four minutes to try to pop people. I’m on the people. I can’t do this anymore. I just
Rob Pickels 11:38
can’t I mean, that used to set your AFib off before, right? Is it setting it off now, or do you just not have that power anymore? Well, so I
Trevor Connor 11:45
have what’s called proximal afib, and I always mispronounce that, but it’s basically when you switch from a really strong sympathetic tone to a parasympathetic tone that causes so we hit a hill really hard for two minutes. I’m fine, but if you come over it and there’s, you know, you have it a little downhill, and I’m not pedaling, I’m instantly in a fib. And that’s it,
Grant Holicky 12:06
okay. That just means you need to go hard over the top of the hill and break away,
Trevor Connor 12:10
which is what I’ve literally tried to do in some races where I’ll actually take the hill not as hard, let them get a little ahead of me, and then close it, and then try to close on this. That’s one of the few ways I can keep myself on a rolling course, interesting. Out of it.
Rob Pickels 12:23
Could just clamp down on your brakes and keep pedaling like Max aerobic power. I’ve
Trevor Connor 12:27
tried that. Honestly, I have tried all these things I know. Like people look at me, go, what the hell is your strategy? I’m like my heart, like, literally, I have to raise differently now because of the AFib to keep myself from going into afib. Absolutely. I
Grant Holicky 12:42
do love that. All the random stuff we’re coming up with, comedic Trevor’s like, Well, I tried that, of course. You idiots. I mean, why wouldn’t I try that?
Trevor Connor 12:52
When you have this, you get all sorts of delusions of, oh, if I do this or that, that’s gonna fix it, not going with the I’m old, I have afib. Suck it up and deal
Rob Pickels 13:04
interesting. Does that change your outlook on racing and events moving forward?
Trevor Connor 13:09
Well, it’s I still love to race. I still love to hop in a race, even though I know over half of the time I’m gonna get popped because I go into afib. And once you’re in afib, you just can’t race anymore. So I don’t mind doing local races, because if I get popped right home, I’m much less willing now to travel to races and pay the expenses, because if I go into afib, it’s a big loss of money,
Grant Holicky 13:31
right? Hence the double down for you on the TT series too, right?
Trevor Connor 13:35
So I love that Wednesday night TT series because a it’s steady. So I rarely go on Dave heaven, I do. I go, Well, there’s a race next week. So, right, right?
Rob Pickels 13:45
Rob, no, I want to give us a lesson. I want to talk to you because you just did a mountain bike race, right? Well, yeah, my lesson
Chris Case 13:51
has to do with, I mean, there’s lots of lessons I learned over the last couple weeks because I did a 50k trail run on one weekend. Just dumb, proud of you. And then it went amazingly well. And then two weekends later, I did the hundo, so 100 kilometer mountain bike race. So not an easy one, not an easy 180. 500 feet of climbing. So yeah, and on this both in Buffalo Creek. So similar trails, not an exact copy, but similar trails. So kind of the lesson I learned was, there’s many one a cyclist can turn themselves into a runner. Yes, don’t be afraid. And actually,
Rob Pickels 14:28
on that note, how much do you run? Because I see on Strava some of your run, and I’m like, This guy, man, he just
Trevor Connor 14:34
did a 50k trail run. So this 50k
Chris Case 14:38
this, this spring, I ran a lot more than I normally do because I knew I was doing a 50k and I’ve only done one marathon on a road in my life, and it went terribly. I didn’t train too much for it. It was all downhill, like 4000 vertical drop trying to qualify for Boston. Went out, you know, super hard. And. Went to 20 miles, super hard, and then just exploded, as a lot of people do. So yeah, I was doing some speed work on the track. I was doing some long runs, but I was combining it with cycling. I didn’t just do running, and I think it was just fun to be able to go out do this 50k and feel really strong until the end, I came in fourth overall. Averaged eight minute 32nd miles for that whole again, pretty early quarter freak, yeah, 4000 feet of hurt on feet. That’s a lot more than it sounds, compared to riding bikes. And then, you know, two weeks later, had the cycling fitness to go and do a five hour mountain bike race. I think so. Well, yeah, and that’s, you know, I’ve done this a lot more than probably most pure cyclists do, because I really enjoy running, and I particularly like trail running. And as life has changed and obligations have changed, less time for cycling. It’s nice to have running as an outlet, because it’s so simple, it’s very efficient. I can run out my back door where I live. I’m spoiled with trails, so just going and you guys know me, I didn’t have any data. I don’t run or ride with really any data. It was all by feeling and I was feeling my way towards a combination of these two things that worked out both for the run and for the mountain bike race, I came in 12th overall. So good fields, not amazing fields for either of them, but still, like I felt very accomplished at having done that. So the lesson is not that I want to brag. The lesson is that you can combine things very easily, create a good engine and perform at both sports and not really take away from one or the other. A lot of the adaptations,
Rob Pickels 16:45
crossovers, the central ones.
Grant Holicky 16:47
I run every morning, and we don’t run very far. My wife and I run as the kids ride to school. We drop them off at school, and we go for a run. I’m starting to Jim Miller a couple weeks ago, and he’s like, that’s not a run. It’s a jog. If it’s less than three miles, it’s a jog. I’m like, Okay, I jog every morning. I don’t know that he’s wrong, but
Chris Case 17:06
I always figured jogging was a slower pace than running. But whatever, I’m not gonna argue with Jim
Grant Holicky 17:12
yogg, yogging. Jay soft. But what I’ve always been kind of impressed with when you get above 20 minutes, and you’re in that kind of 25 to 30 minute range. There’s an aerobic piece to that puzzle. And running, you mentioned it being efficient. It’s so good bang for the buck. You go for a 30 minute run. 45 minute run,
Rob Pickels 17:34
it’s worthwhile. Oh, you go for a 30 minute bike ride. It’s
Chris Case 17:38
hard to make it worthwhile. Yes, exactly, exactly, unless you’re going super hard, which you don’t want to do all the time, right?
Grant Holicky 17:44
And being older, and being in my 50s, there’s that metabolic benefit of two a days, and you have this short, quick, easy, it’s running. So it’s never easy for me, but you got to work on it in the morning. Then do your thing, do some work, go for a ride. It’s a huge metabolic benefit. And I can’t tell you the benefit I think I’ve gotten on the bike from just those morning runs,
Chris Case 18:06
my lower back actually feels a lot better having done a lot more running, I think because running sort of tightens you up in certain ways, so it actually makes me stretch more, which I don’t do if I’m just riding a bike. But it also is strengthening things and building characteristics in my body that are neglected when you’re locked into a certain position on a bike all the time.
Grant Holicky 18:28
Chris McGovern, somebody who I’ve worked with at Forever endurance, but I know through the cross world, he has always been big on running, pushes the hips back forward, tightens up the front side of the body, which in cyclists, you’re always kind of bent over and sat down. And he’s been adamant for years that little bit of running tightens that up and makes riders springier little bit more in the sprint. It’s anecdotal, it’s
Chris Case 18:56
strangely it like lessens the imbalances that you get?
Rob Pickels 19:00
Well, yeah, variety of the activity is important, sure, especially as you know, we’ve all been riding and doing a very similar activity for 20 or 30 years or whatever, to have that variety is great, just for general health and general structure improvements.
Grant Holicky 19:15
What did you learn that I’m a queen
Chris Case 19:17
grant is pointing at rob you. Hey,
Grant Holicky 19:21
forget him on a podcast, what did you or
Chris Case 19:23
you forgot his name? Either one, what did this guy? Pickleman.
Rob Pickels 19:28
Pickleman, I learned that I’m a quitter. Tell you the truth. No, I don’t know. The last event that I did was talk about a downer. It’s true, it’s true, but quitting is good. I think sometimes, well, there’s your lesson. When is it good? Tell us when it’s good. It’s good when you realize you don’t want to be doing what you’re doing. If it’s not fun, don’t do it exactly. If it’s not fun, don’t do it no. And that’s, I think, that the last, I think the last event I did was Finland gravel. You know, people that listen to the podcast regularly know that I did maybe two years ago. I think at this point, uh, transport. Goal, and then a month later, I did Finland gravel, that long ago, I know it was, yeah, and I got a quarter of the way into Finland gravel, and just I wasn’t having fun. I went out a little harder than I probably should have, just because, in my opinion, the first few k were, like, a little bit sketchy and loose, and I just didn’t want to get caught up. Didn’t want to deal with it. A Riff Raff, you know? And I ended up in a group with a lot of like, the leading women in the race, and they were racing, they were there to place and to do well. And I was getting literally elbowed into the gutter by people trying to hold the wheel and trying to take the wheel off of me so that they could get in the draft, right? And frankly, I was there because I wanted to see the finished countryside. And, you know, I’ve realized that I love big adventures, and that doesn’t mean just riding easy and touring around. I also love to push myself and try, but if literally push comes to shove, I’m not necessarily in a place that I want to shove back at this point, you know, I realized, I was like, Man, this is like, kind of cutthroat out here, like, I don’t want to, you know, end up hurting myself or whatever. And I peeled off out of the group, and I stood on the side of the road, and I rerouted my Garmin as another group went by. And I thought, oh, you know what, maybe I should just hop into this group. And I was like, No, I’m gonna take this new path home. And my Garmin, I chose off road in my routing, and I routed me off road. All right, I don’t know about that one Garmin. I think I went through a lot of private property. Sorry, Finnish people, but that riding back to the town was 10 times more fun than it took to get me there, the adventure through the forest and through the fields and literally over the fences, was incredible. And that has really as I’m now looking I’ve also listeners know I’ve kind of gone through more kidney issues. I had kidney issues before this, and again, some kidney issues after. And I’m back in a place where I’m training, and I think next year, I kind of wanted another sort of big adventure. But as I’m looking at events, I’m looking for things that are a little bit less racy and cutthroat and putting on a number. And what I loved about trans Portugal was it was like a hard group ride every day with your friends. And, you know, there was a good camaraderie, because it’s multiple days kind of with the same people in the same group. Everybody was there to kind of push and encourage everyone. Everyone was there to ride hard without question. But it wasn’t like they were trying to ride you into the gutter. It wasn’t like they were happy when they dropped you. You know, I’m looking for events like that in the future, if anybody knows of anything, you know, especially mountain bike stage stuff, you know, I would certainly love to hear
Chris Case 22:37
about sounds like Cape Epic is right up your alley. I don’t think it
Rob Pickels 22:41
is to tell you the truth. I don’t, I don’t, you don’t think that’s the group, right? I don’t think
Chris Case 22:45
that that’s where people go. A little too hard there. I
Rob Pickels 22:47
think people are really trying a little bit. Couple of them, just a few. Do you want Rhabdo go to Cape epic? Oh, the other thing too, though, I gotta throw out there. I don’t like camping, and so I don’t, I don’t want to sleep on the ground.
Chris Case 23:01
Why don’t you just do laps from your house?
Grant Holicky 23:04
I was going to suggest there’s this great bike packing race that goes all around Montana. Okay, it basically, Montana is pretty sweet, dude.
Chris Case 23:14
It the course looks ridiculous, but it involves camping,
23:17
but it involves campus minimalistic. So this
Rob Pickels 23:20
is, I have never done any true bike packing, and my probably false impression of it is that you’re just kind of riding along slow on a really heavy bike. And that, in of itself, doesn’t sound fun to me. I do want to be able to ride fast and hard.
Grant Holicky 23:33
It’s up to you, whether you go fast or you go slow, is it? Yeah. I mean, you. I mean, think about how fast you can go downhill,
Chris Case 23:40
you can, you can, you can take many different approaches with bike packing races, just like you can with other types of races. Just know that bike packing races, it’s usually a start and a finish line. The clock never stops, so there’s this urge to keep going, and there isn’t a destination each day. And so that’s when you get into sleep deprivation, and that’s when you get into I’m in this beautiful place, but it’s nighttime and I can’t see anything that I’m passing, so there’s like, some conflict there. So yeah,
Suzy Sanchez 24:10
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Trevor Connor 24:30
All right, we need to move to the next question. Trevor, mine, I think yours. I think obviously yours. Okay, I’m always in the middle.
Rob Pickels 24:36
If Griffin was here, then that you’re right.
Grant Holicky 24:41
And for anybody who wants to say that Griffin keeps us on track, no Griffin would have ruined this right
Chris Case 24:49
now. Trevor, go quickly.
Rob Pickels 24:52
So Michael, I miss you, Griffin.
Trevor Connor 24:53
We can cover this one pretty quickly. Intervals. Don’t do them.
Rob Pickels 24:57
Gone, done. But if you do. We just talked about having a new Monday.
Trevor Connor 25:01
You kind of hinted at this earlier, and I’m going to start with my answer to this. But you have over unders where you go over threshold for a short period of time, then under threshold for a period of time and go back and forth. Or you have the just straight high intensity intervals where you go really hard for 20 seconds, or 30 seconds or one minute, and then you have a recovery where you’re barely spinning the pedals, and then you do another effort and keep going back and forth, like that. Same thing, pros, cons,
Chris Case 25:32
they’re not the same thing.
Rob Pickels 25:33
Throw a third one out there. The third one is the longer interval that is relatively steady.
Trevor Connor 25:41
Yeah. So leaving ish Thresh, I believe in those out. So I’m just comparing leaving those out. And so I get to start with my answer, which you touched on, which is sometimes in intervals, you got to train yourself how to suffer a little. And my issue with the over unders, I noticed, is because, you know you can’t fully recover. You don’t go really hard either. So it never really hurts. Where, if you do like, 30 seconds, and you, you know, you got 30 seconds to a minute to recover, you can destroy yourself in that 30 seconds.
Grant Holicky 26:13
I mean, with over unders, I think I don’t know that I’ve ever put over unders on somebody’s program in terms of caring too much about the over I’m putting over unders on somebody’s program to show them they can recover at the under. And even this is Neil Henderson, has this great workout Batman’s where you go hard on the intro. And Chris has done him. I know Rob’s done him, everybody in this room, but you’ve probably done them too well. I’ve given to my athletes. But you do that 20 seconds, super hard, 120 130% and then you have this middle period, that’s threshold. And for the first minute, minute and a half, you’re sitting in a threshold. You’re like, I can’t do this. I’m gonna die. And I did these again. Been doing stuff like this for 1520, years, right? I did ’em the other day, and it was the minute in, going, God, I don’t know if I can hold this. And like clockwork, between a minute and a minute and a half, I go, Oh, I’m okay now, and I could just sit here at threshold. So I like over unders with that mindset of, look, you can recover under you can do this. This is all right. And so it’s getting people ready for the surge of a race. And then, all right, get your wits about you when you’re slightly under or pace lining, breakaway. Pace line, front of a group. Pace line, oh, God, that pull was so hard. I think I’m Oh, I’m okay, now I can do another pull. So that’s why I put them on the program. If I’m putting something on there that’s like, we’re gonna go way over and recover full on. Maybe I’m working true lactate production, like I want to flood them. I want them to hurt I want them to almost stall out muscularly. And then the other thing I’m putting in there for is especially up here. I want up here, meaning at altitude. I’m sorry, yeah, I want people to push really high watts at a really high cadence, which means you’re in pretty big gear, like you’re not spinning your way through this. You’re spinning because you’re trying to produce the Watts like you are cranking. And I want people to get used to that feeling, and I love that feeling. I get vilified for this on a trainer, high cadence, high force, high cadence, high force. On a trainer, because you don’t have to worry about anything. You just sit on a trainer. It was a
Rob Pickels 28:28
little bit a little bit safer, a little easier to be confident, yeah, if things go assault, you know, peel over on the side of the
Grant Holicky 28:34
road. And it’s also easier to get the cadence up and keep it up, because there’s not a change in terrain. Because where do we tend to do these people tend to do this stuff uphill. And I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t do intervals uphill anymore. I’m on the flat because I don’t race uphill. I raced on an undulating terrain, so I better be able to put out 450 watts slightly downhill, which is very different. Yeah, it’s totally different animal. So yeah, long winded answer to get to that. Like, I think they’re training very, very different things over under. I’m training the under. I’m looking to get people to think about the under on a big rest, big force. I’m wanting to think about the force without a
Rob Pickels 29:14
doubt. And yeah, I think that if we’re training people to go deep, it’s sort of in two different ways, right? Like, the hard stuff, the really hard 32nd ons, maybe like the five minute at max aerobic power type of stuff that’s really teaching someone to deal with pain and to go deep and to physically hurt themselves, right? Yeah. But if we’re talking about longer interval sets with over unders, the over is really just sort of flooding the system, maybe with a little bit of extra lactate, and then the under is teaching them to sort of be able to sit in and recover and allow the alarm bells to turn off. The hard efforts turn the alarm bells on. The under effort teaches you to turn them off, and sometimes you have to do that actively,
Grant Holicky 29:57
and there’s a lot going on in your brain that turns. This off. There’s a lot of those things about how deeply Are you breathing, how calmly Are you breathing? Are you grimacing? How relaxed is your face? All these things are things that you’re gonna have to make an active choice about. So that’s where the mental strength comes in. Of like I got this, I can do this.
Rob Pickels 30:17
Just relax. I think one of the best ways in Trevor if we actually take your two concepts and combine them together, is one of my favorite workouts. Grant for exactly what you’re talking about. And that is a set of, say, 3030s, or 2040s, and then into sub threshold, yeah, if it’s five minutes of sub threshold, because that first minute is alarm bell city, and in the second minute, you’re like, you know what, I think I might have this. And at minute three, you’re like, I feel pretty good. And by minute five, you’re like, I probably could have kept going,
Grant Holicky 30:48
Yeah? And that’s a nice way to end
Trevor Connor 30:50
an interval, right? Yeah? Neil Henderson loves that, yeah, yeah.
Rob Pickels 30:53
At the end, I do a lot of that with athletes, kind of, as we get toward race season, and we’re really sort of working on this, like, pushing mental skills sort of thing, yeah,
Grant Holicky 31:01
I think there’s a big mental piece to all these things, but they’re different mental pieces, right? And what you’re training physiologically totally different. I think they’re different animals, you know, you can get into I want to produce. I want to clear. How long can I sit here, but I used to say this when I was talking to swimmers, like the 50 freestyle is like somebody walking up to you and punching you in the face. It hurts a lot, but doesn’t hurt for that long. The mile 1650 in swimming is like somebody grabbing your hair on your head and just pulling it. It’s a tolerable pain, but it’s going to go on for a really, really, really long time. And how you deal with each one of those things kind of defines who you are as an athlete. There are athletes who naturally want to go out and run the 400 or go run the 800 which the 800 is like the most painful thing on the planet, right? 200 freestyles, but the first lap isn’t, no. First lap feels great. The second lap is just like lactate bath. And your mind talk about alarm bells, right? You never really feel like that. Running the 5k or the 10k it’s a different pain. You’re sitting there in the first 2k about 10k going, Really, I gotta do this for another 8k I don’t know about that, but those pains are different, and exposing people to those different things are really, really important. I mean, you’ll have athletes that come to the table and all they’ve done is threshold and tempo work, and I’m throwing that high end stuff at them. And I’ll have athletes that are going, I can’t do this, like I’ve I can’t, I don’t think I can last 30 seconds at that power. But then I’ll also have athletes that come back and go, that was easy, and then I go, look at their power, and they’re not even close to where they need to be, because they can’t go there. And
Rob Pickels 32:56
this is also, I think it’s important, you know, I’m ERG mode king for a lot of things, but I think that stuff like this really ought to be done in a free living situation where you have to make the choice to be able to push yourself. You can’t just rely on the computer to do it for you and you’re just sort of following along. You have to be actively involved in pushing yourself forward.
Trevor Connor 33:17
I tell athletes all the time that I give these do not be staring at the bike computer. He says, go as hard as you can without absolutely exploding.
Chris Case 33:25
This reminds me, Trevor of an athlete you used to coach who had a really hard problem hurting himself in races but not in training. Yeah. Remember that
Grant Holicky 33:34
story vividly, and that was a mental component, yeah. But everybody gets good at different things. I have an athlete right now who’s in his mid to later 60s, their FTP, their threshold is down. They’re older, but if I give those high end workouts, they knock them out of the park going 130 or 150% they have a capacity to produce that kind of power for a short period of time, but it’s like that long, sustained one that’s kind of dropped off. They’ve raced mountain bikes for a really long time. They’re great at this punchy stuff. And so you have that athlete that their threshold might be way down here, but you can’t do the VO two Max work on 120 or 130% of that threshold, because that’s too easy for them. You have to go to a different place. Yeah, I was playing around with a workout that one of my athletes was coming up with for people they coach. And I was like, Yeah, I’ll go do it. I’ll play around with it. And it’s basically go 120 to 140% for as long as you can, stop rest for a minute and then do it again. And you always get a minute rest. You go as long as you can, but you’re trying to get to 20 minutes of total work at that energy system. And I came back and I was like, Okay, I don’t think you can do it as one to one rest. That’s how. Originally had talked about, I think it has to be a minute rest in between. And he laughed at me at one point and goes, dude, you live in that world like that. For you makes a ton of sense, because you’re going to recover super quickly in your mind. Because think about other people. I’m like, Oh yeah, there’s some people that definitely going to need one to one with this. It is so different of how you see those things like you and I grew up sprinting and so breathing out of our eyeballs, we’ll go, okay, just give it a second. This will pass other people. You’re breathing out of their eyeballs. They’re scared because it feels like you’re gonna die again. Your body’s screaming, evolutionarily, stop it or you’re gonna die. I mean, that’s exactly what your brains yelling at your body.
Rob Pickels 35:46
I mean, I do think that we see athletes all the time. I saw it in high school. I saw it in college athletes, where I think that people feel safer on Tuesday when they’re doing the intervals, and they’re doing them with their friends, and there’s nothing on the line. Like it doesn’t matter if you go too hard and blow up, and they will go 110% but on Saturday, when it’s race day, there’s something to lose, yep, and suddenly, sort of this fear, well, if I go too hard, then I might blow up and I might not finish well, and people might not think as much of me, and and, and, and it just sort of snowballs from that. And I think that people end up being they lose the confidence to put themselves out there, to be uncomfortable takes a lot of confidence to know you’re going to come out of that. Okay. I think something that’s important to bring up is the what we’re talking about is not about hurting yourself. It’s not about pain or anything like that, but it is about bringing yourself to a place where I think that you unlock more performance. And for me, as a story, I was, you guys are familiar, you know, behind my house is, is bow mountain, wagon wheel gap. And so I would do intervals up that you Chris, you’re like one of the KOMs on it, and I’ll never get to your time. Where do you live in? North Boulder, Wonderland you lived in South bolt? Oh, no, never mind. Yeah, you think of someone else. And, you know, I would go and I would do my efforts, I would always do them at a particular wattage, and I would be able to hit that wattage, but it would be pretty hard, and I could never go harder than that wattage. And one day, I was just like, You know what? Forget it. I’m just, I’m head down. I’m not gonna care about the numbers. I’m just gonna do whatever I can do. And I was like, 30 Watts higher, and every other interval I ever did after that was also 30 Watts higher. One effort I like, broke through a plateau which and my performance was forever improved.
Trevor Connor 37:34
Well, this was what part of what motivated me to ask the question, because this spring, I decided to do over under intervals. Not a huge rationale for it, because, like I said, I don’t have any event that I’m training for, and I’m like, hey, they sound like fun. And was executing them perfectly. Was feeling really good about it. Then I went to my first Wednesday morning fellow pack. I did a 30 seconds really hard, and went, Oh, my God, I forgot how much this hurts, and just couldn’t tolerate Yeah.
Grant Holicky 37:59
I mean, I think that’s that’s really a thing. Side note to your breakthrough. This is why somebody who gets caught doping should be banned for life, because doping unlocks that next thing too. You look down and you can push a certain watch, your brain believes you can push a certain lots, and it changes what you’re capable of doing. This is what happened with the Super Suits and swimming too? People went these ridiculous times were out of control, and we banned the suits, and they kept going those times
Rob Pickels 38:28
once, you know, something’s possible. It’s the same way kids growing up in the bike park. Well, that guy did a back flip off that jump. So I can do one too, you know, like you watch the progression of kids with some tricks and stuff.
Trevor Connor 38:40
So I back when I was completely different. Build was a football player. No, you weren’t. I was, No, you weren’t. So
Rob Pickels 38:46
soccer, yes,
Trevor Connor 38:50
my biggest goal, and I won’t give you the number, was to curl a certain weight, 40 pounds, 60 but you could probably do, no problem, but I was working on it. Wait, you’re not kidding. I’m not kidding. Okay, it was 60. Was 60, but for a year I couldn’t do it. And I was in the weight room talking with some buddies, and I went to pick up the 55 and accidentally picked up the 60s. And I’m sitting there curling, going down. I’m not having a good day. This is hurting, but I’m getting through it. And then my friend’s like, Trevor, you’re curling the 60s. And I’m like, what
Rob Pickels 39:25
lying to people is the best way to improve their performance? Yep, there, no, there’s, there’s coaching brought to you by, there’s, there’s countless studies where if you just misreport the workload that somebody’s doing, they’ll think that they’re only doing 300 watts, but they’re really doing 315 and they can do it. Yeah,
Grant Holicky 39:42
do it, yep, yep, there’s a lot of that. Hello, fast talk. It’s me. Grant holikey. You may know me as the co host of the fast talk podcast, but I’m also the head coach and founder of forever endurance. At forever endurance, we believe in selfless coaching. We believe that 80% of endurance performance. Psychological and that our coaches put you in charge. Visit forever endurance.com to see more about how we can help you achieve your goals in cycling, cyclocross and triathlon. Okay, we blew through your minute warning.
Trevor Connor 40:14
Yeah, so let’s go to your question.
Rob Pickels 40:15
Oh, that’s alright. Enough time for fast time today, I
Trevor Connor 40:19
appreciate the contempt with your one minute warning.
Grant Holicky 40:22
Okay, so mine is this simple training question. Well, not simple. Hopefully it’s not simple at all. Is all based the same? And to give some context to this, why I thought of this was I was out riding last week, did a super hard vo two Max session on Monday, did turned out Tuesday, on Tuesday and lasted till the end. Wow, and it was with a B group. No, it was with the Okay. They were all farts, like me, the young and showed up, which like, you’re like, I got a shot. And then Wednesday, I went out for base ride. My base was a lower average on that Wednesday base ride, and I felt very good about that. I was targeting purposely because of how I felt, probably just right around 201 90 to 210 that’s where my base world lived. I’ll kind of use 320 as a threshold, right? So I was living in that base world, but I’ll go out if I have a base ride after recovery day, I’m riding base at 222, 3240 heart rates going to be typically somewhat similar. The RPE is very similar. So are those different base days, or are they essentially the same base day. That’s one part of the question. Second part of the question is, is a climbing base day the same as a flat base day? Because the big thing that came out earlier this year that everybody lost their mind about was an interview with today where he said, Yes, on my base days, I’m doing whatever the hell it was, right? 300 and whatever watts on my base days. But as he talked more, and part that didn’t get any coverage was that ridiculous. Number was what he was writing base on his hilly base days. And he said, I’ll ride my flatter base days at this number, which was so ridiculous, but more in the realm of capacity of the mind.
Trevor Connor 42:23
So was he giving average or normalized power? Because that is important. I don’t
Grant Holicky 42:26
even know that he stated the difference, but obviously those two things are very, very different. So yeah, what do you think?
Trevor Connor 42:33
So I’ll start with the hilly versus flat. Was part of why I was asking, I think there’s a big difference, a huge difference, because I think would you I mean, one time you’re going uphill, and then, so you’re gonna have big variants in the water, right? You’re gonna probably be a little above your zone going up the hill, and then you’re gonna be way below your zone coming down the hill. And I’ve noticed doing base rides around here where I go up a hill. I realize, well, I planned a four hour ride today, but the last hour 15 is just going downhill at 50 watts, yeah, so it was really a two hour, 45 minute ride, which you wouldn’t have the same thing on the flats. Yeah.
Grant Holicky 43:08
I mean, it is and it isn’t. You’re still on the bike. There’s still some other things that are going on. You’re still in a some degree of effort because but the up and the big thing for me with this is the uphill is typically a little above zone. And
Rob Pickels 43:22
so then, in my opinion, it’s not a base day. For me. When I’m looking at zone distribution, I’m looking at time in zone, and you’re both bringing up really important points. A three hour ride could have 50% of it in a recovery zone, because you’re coasting downhill or whatever else. You can’t count that as three hours of base and that’s assuming that you were going uphill at an appropriate base zone. The other side of it is just because your ride averaged power over the course of three hours was, say, 200 watts or whatever, and that’s in your base zone. If you did half of that at 300 and half of that at 100 again, that is not a base ride, you spent zero minutes in the actual base zone,
Trevor Connor 44:04
right? And that’s why I was asked about normalized versus average, sure. And
Rob Pickels 44:07
I would contest that most people probably can’t do a hilly base ride. I mean, not Well, I tested Yani Brockovich one year, and he did a cool down up sunshine Canyon, which makes sense when you’re 130 pound climber, but the rest of us, unless your first case, probably can’t go uphill easy enough to stay within a zone.
Trevor Connor 44:26
There are some ways to do it, like around here. I know a lot of our listeners don’t know the climbs. I would never do a base ride where I’m doing like Flagstaff and sunshine, which should be steep climbs. Yeah, you could do left hand. Well, do left hand, or I’ll climb up to Estes Park, where it’s four or 5% the whole way up you
Rob Pickels 44:43
go up 36 to Estes. Yes, of course you do. You’re the only, he’s the only person right in this world that chooses Yes,
Trevor Connor 44:51
from Toronto. I was just in Toronto this weekend. I think I came close to my death like 10 times riding the roads there. So you. Which is a different perspective. In Toronto, people bike very far to get to something as nice as 36
Rob Pickels 45:05
god, okay. Anyway, back on topic. You know where
Grant Holicky 45:09
I almost died today, on the bike path. Invoice. That is death on a stick. We’ll come back to that some other day. I think that should be a question. Anyway,
Trevor Connor 45:19
yeah, so yeah, if you have a very highway grade ish climb, then you can do base training,
Grant Holicky 45:24
because left hand, you can ride base on the way up. And then you can choose to be in probably a pedal on a low
Rob Pickels 45:31
base on the way
Grant Holicky 45:31
we were. I mean, yeah, you can do that for sure. And then, to extend your point, the other thing that happens when you climb descend. Climb descend. You’re not stringing together a long period of base, sure, you’re chunking that up and getting big recovery in there, which is not giving you the same response physiologically to a three hour ride where you just sit in base. Yeah, I think that’s something that you know to me. And turn hilly versus flat. This is one of the reasons why everybody says Boulder is a great place to train, because you have the hills, but then you can go for our five hour flat base rides easily and not even begin to explore everything, but keeping the chain tight for three to four hours is it does something different to your body. Oh, it’s harder than people realize, because they don’t typically do it. Here’s
Trevor Connor 46:21
one of the best indicators I have, Dr Sala and I have worked on a chart in W, K, O, that divides your heart rate by power. So use your heart rate and then your six minute wattage. So max heart rate to six minute power is kind of equivocal, and then does a rolling average of both. And that should just be a straight line going across until you start experiencing cardiac drift, right? And even though people say, you know, the hilly climbs, long rides are hard, I’ll look at an athlete on one of those, and you never really see that cardiac drift right, where you send somebody out and that long, steady, flat ride, yeah, you’ll see it’s flat and then whoop starts picking up, right? You see their body responding differently after a certain period of time.
Rob Pickels 47:06
Now, we are unique in that we do have these opportunities, but I think that we all work with athletes who don’t have a lick of flat ground anywhere near them. It’s a series of 50 foot rolling hills, 100 foot rolling hills. And with those athletes, I say, Hey, you’re gonna have to be riding base in a variable situation. Try to make that as little variable as possible. Don’t charge up those hills. Yes, sit and base up the hills. Push a little bit as you go over the top. Make sure that you’re staying in zone. Try to pedal down the backsides. You probably can’t, you know, but that’s okay. But do everything you can to try to moderate that effort so that it’s staying within time, within that zone as much as possible, and don’t get sucked into this. I worked hard there so I can back off here, and it averages out to a base effort, because it doesn’t.
Grant Holicky 47:58
And one thing I will say about this very good and very, very experienced cyclists fall prey to this. I have high level pros that go out for their base rides, and they always around here. They always turn west and want to go up in the hills, yep, yep. And getting them to like, I have gotten to the point where, in some people’s programs, I am writing hilly bass ride, knowing what a hilly base ride is, which is a lot of tempo, and that’s okay. And for the gravel athletes, that’s great. Let’s go get a crapload of tempo today. And then I have other athletes where I’m like, I’ll do that on one block, and then it is five hours flat base, right? Yep, I want the chain type the entire time. So starting to distinguish between those two types of quote, unquote base rides has been really, really important, yeah. What about the other
Rob Pickels 48:55
say, Yeah, let’s talk about the first part of your question here, and that’s kind of like a a high base versus low base. I mean, I think that this is coming out too, or
Grant Holicky 49:02
I think some of that, for me is the question of what is more important, the actual number you see on your power meter, or RPE.
Trevor Connor 49:11
I personally, when I prescribe bass rights, it’s by heart rate and perceived effort. I don’t prescribe them by power. So to me, as long as your heart rate’s in the right range of perceived efforts in the right range, I could care less if the power is 30 Watts
Rob Pickels 49:23
higher, and that’s going to fluctuate based on glycogen status, based on recent activity, stuff like that. I’m okay with that, because I think that the base range is I’ll accept your answer.
Trevor Connor 49:37
Well, I think that I actually felt complimented, but
Rob Pickels 49:42
I think that that we talk about zones right, and we cut stuff so narrow sometimes, yeah, we do. And frankly, I think that the base zone is actually a heck of a lot broader on people.
Chris Case 49:51
How did, how did you decide what wattage to sit at? Was it based on feeling that day be or was it like? I’ve done this on Monday, I’ve done this on Tuesday, so I need to drop it by
Grant Holicky 50:04
this. I almost always do it based on feel because you’re gonna have days where you roll through those two days and you feel like Superman still somehow. And that’s so
Chris Case 50:11
in that case, it would be up where it was normally. Yeah, yeah. But
Grant Holicky 50:15
to Rob’s point, I think one of the things that I’ve said for years, and I think people sometimes take this the wrong way is you almost can’t go too easy on a base day. Yeah. I mean, even if you’re too low, you’re in Zone One. Oh God, zone one, you’re still getting a lot of the same response that you’re gonna get in base. It’s not exactly the same, but you’re still riding a bike, you’re still turning your legs over, you’re still breathing, you’re still pedaling.
Trevor Connor 50:38
That is exactly my issue. Is the number of people that say, well, base training is zone two, and it’s right at the top of zone, the whole ride, sitting right at the edge of that going. That’s the only way to do
Chris Case 50:51
the same thing as like, you know, if a little is something, then I must do more, because that means I get a better response. So if zone two ends at 200 then I must be as close to 299
Grant Holicky 51:02
Yeah. What I think is wild about that, too, is that then people will drift into low tempo and low tempo. Are you really getting much of a different physiological response than base? Not much, but you’re getting tired. I’ll tell you one thing, you’re gonna have a hard time doing your intervals the next couple days, much more fatiguing. I mean, I
Rob Pickels 51:22
think that if we’re looking at the fact that, like, lactate is beginning to kick up and stuff like that, physiologically, I think that we know that things are a lot different when you’re in that low tempo. Yes, but if you go the other way, let’s say that base ends at 200 watts, just for a round number. Sure. I do think that there is more of difference between 202 10 than there is between 201
Grant Holicky 51:42
60, oh, 100% I would agree with that. I
Rob Pickels 51:45
would be totally fine with somebody being 160 to 200 anywhere in between. That’s fine with me.
Grant Holicky 51:50
I think the curse of so much of this is data, right? And the curse of so much of this is CTO and TSS, oh, yeah, right, because you can go do an appropriate base ride for four hours and walk out of that with a TSS of what? 110 100 I mean, you really can, and that’s a super effective four hour base ride. You can
Trevor Connor 52:10
also go out the TSS, what’s that? Oh, people look as the Ts. They want to be hired,
Grant Holicky 52:14
right? And, like, I went on a four hour ride. This should be like, 151 60. That’s not the
Trevor Connor 52:20
okay. I score. I take TSS off my bike computer because I started doing that. God, I never had it on, and I was doing my base rides, right, and I’d look at the TSS and go and just feel that temptation to go harder. Oh yeah, and, you know better, yes,
Grant Holicky 52:37
I actually have gotten to a point where I play a game, starting to figure out an ability to predict what the TSS is based on what you’re going right? I mean, I can go find the formula. It’s super easy to find, right, but you start to kind of do it in your head. And so on a day like that Wednesday, where I’m there, as long as the computer is mostly green, and my base zone starts at, I don’t know, like 182 if it mostly see green and a little bit of blue. Heck yeah, I don’t see any yellow, because yellow means tempo, and I can’t do it today. Like, I know I can’t do it today. I think
Rob Pickels 53:14
the bigger issue is duration, right? I mean, the more duration that you can rack up, the more beneficial that base ride is, and I would take more duration, over a couple percent increase in intensity any day of the week.
Trevor Connor 53:28
So I got an email, actually, about two weeks ago from one of our listeners, Robert. And I loved this email, and it was right to your point, he’s now able, on the weekends to do a longer ride. And his question to me, which I’ve never gotten. I was like, Oh, I love this question wasn’t, how hard can I go on the base ride? It was, how easy Can I go and still get benefits? Because he was trying to do those longer rides right at the top end of zone two. And he said, But on Tuesday, when I did my intervals, I didn’t have in the legs. So he said, how easy Can I can go so that my legs are recovered for Tuesday, but still see benefits. And I’m like, you’re thinking about it exactly.
Grant Holicky 54:06
And in a lot of ways, there’s almost there, isn’t it too easy, keep going if you’re pedaling. I’m being a little hyperbolic here, but like, if you’re pedaling that bike, putting force into the pedals, breathing your heart rates up a little bit. You’re getting so much of what we want from that response. And if you can sit there for four or five hours, great
Rob Pickels 54:29
for me, I would put a lower bound probably about like 60% of FTP. You know, anywhere below that when with enough duration, it is certainly beneficial with your question, right? But I usually put a low bound of base at about 60% of ft. So it’s pretty low, but
Trevor Connor 54:44
I told him is similar. I said 65% of max heart rate because that’s when stroke volume is maxed out.
Grant Holicky 54:49
And that point is the one piece I will throw out that I think is hugely important about this. Base is not defined by one metric. Yeah. It is defined by a breathing rate, heart rate, stroke volume, million pieces in that puzzle that create where you are in a zone. The Watts are the downstream repercussion. That’s what happens when all of that other stuff is going in the right place. You get a number from a watt, right? It’s not the other way around. If I push this number of watts, all those other things are in the right zone, because that can be different by fatigue, sleep, food, age, wind, million different things. Heat’s huge.
Trevor Connor 55:37
Well, guys, I think we done it. Pot luck, who wants to do the outro? Chris
Grant Holicky 55:42
as a guest. This has been another episode. Of
Chris Case 55:48
the thoughts and opinions expressed on fast tech are those of the individual
Trevor Connor 55:56
Bucha, social media stuff,
Chris Case 55:57
social media, hashtag, this and that at forums, that fad, and then that thing, and then for Chris case, no, I’m Chris case. For Trevor Connor, grand holiday, Rob pickles, I’m Chris case, thanks for listening by something like
Grant Holicky 56:13
that. Wow. Got out of here in a hurry. Oh, let the door hit you on the way out. Case you I’m.
