Purists say never do efforts on long base rides, but recent research is challenging whether a few efforts really do any harm. More importantly, can doing some neuromuscular work help?
Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Trevor Connor: Hello and welcome to Fast Talk your source for the science of endurance sports train
[00:00:10] Chris Case: endurance performance.
[00:00:11] Trevor Connor: I’m never gonna get it.
[00:00:12] Chris Case: No, I can’t believe it.
[00:00:14] Trevor Connor: We’re gonna be doing the 800th episode and I’m still not gonna get it. Sorry. So we are here for another one of our fast chats. These are episodes where we talk about what’s really been catching our attention.
In the science or in our training and dive into the science about this, and this one has been motivated by an episode that we did that went up right beginning of January, I believe.
[00:00:41] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:00:41] Trevor Connor: We had Neil Henderson and Tim Cusick on the show talking about how to do base training on limited time. And actually what really caught my attention in that episode was Neil.
Talking about the importance of neuromuscular training during the base season, particularly as his athletes get older. He was talking about having them do tons of cadence, drill, being in the weight room, going out and doing sprints, adding all this work to their base work, which if you think about the traditional view of base training, it’s long, slow.
You should never go hard. You should just be keeping it easy. So you’re hearing. A different opinion from Neil in some ways and a more sophisticated approach. So it’s caught my attention. There were actually two new studies that came out that touched on this, so we’ll probably bring them up in this conversation.
I just wanna talk about in base training, should we be doing these hard efforts even on what’s supposed to be that traditional long, slow ride?
[00:01:41] Chris Case: Yeah. I think that’s probably not just something we are thinking about, but a lot of people around this time of year are thinking to themselves if they’ve sort of put their stock in a traditional base training period of okay, long.
Rides. Slow rides, eh, it’s cold out. It’s kind of boring. If I’m going slow, I’m not getting warmed up, you know, like this is on their mind. How can I add variety to this? Am I gonna ruin my base ride? If I add a sprint, a townline sprint in? Am I going to. Ruin or taint my base ride if I put in a couple minute surge up a hill.
These things are probably on a lot of people’s minds right now.
[00:02:25] Trevor Connor: Yep. Listeners come ride with us now through March. Chris case and I are hosting Zw rides every Tuesday with special guests like Neil Henderson, Brent Buckwalter, Dr. Steven Seiler, and more. Each workout will be an easy no drop ride, so you can chat your cycling training questions to our experts and get interesting answers, all while getting a one hour workout.
Register for Fast Talk Labs, rides on zw.com or see our guest list and register on Fast Talk labs.com/zw. So we found one study, and this is a great example of where you see a study that you’re really excited about and then when you dive into it, maybe you’re less excited. Right? It was titled An All Out Sprint does not challenge the main goal of an endurance-based training session in cycling.
And they even in the introduction talk about the town line sprint.
[00:03:17] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:18] Trevor Connor: So, Julie, what, what was your impression of this study?
[00:03:21] Julie Young: Well, I thought it was interesting, but I definitely had your same impression. And of course we know when you’re designing studies you have to have some pretty strict formatting to it.
But it just wasn’t to me, very realistic or applicable to what we would do in training. Like the three minutes at the beginning, three minutes in the middle, and three minutes after. And I guess what really kind of came to my mind in reading this study was what is the tipping point? Of too much. Like when does it start to disturb our intended adaptations?
For zone two training,
[00:03:54] Trevor Connor: I had the exact same impression. First of all, I love the fact that the title is an All out sprint, does not challenge the main goal. And then in their protocol, their quote all out Sprint is a three minute effort.
[00:04:05] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:06] Trevor Connor: I wish I could sprint that long. Right? I really wish I could.
It’d be nice. But yeah, if you look at the protocol, so they had a control group and basically the sprint group both did 180 minute kinda steady state ride, and they wanted to see if that sprint in the middle had an impact. But then you see the kind of science brand go, we have to have all these controls.
So on the control ride. You do a three minute all out effort before you start the steady pace.
[00:04:37] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:37] Trevor Connor: And then you finish with a three minute all out effort.
[00:04:40] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:41] Trevor Connor: And then the other one, you do the same thing, but in the middle you put in a three minute effort. So at the end of the day. You have one group that’s doing two all-out efforts and another group that’s doing three all-out efforts, so I’m not sure it’s really showing what they mm-hmm.
Were trying to get at.
[00:04:54] Chris Case: Right.
[00:04:55] Julie Young: I think one thing that also came to my mind, and I understand I’m veering off a little bit here, but. I, I remember listening to Dr. San Milan, and he’s such a stringent proponent of zone two, and he was so adamant that definitely you wanted to separate out the intensity and the endurance days.
And I had remembered him saying that, you know, if you are gonna do any sort of intensity, you definitely wanna do that towards the end of the ride. So you have kind of that pure. Metabolic environment that promotes those zone two adaptations, and then at the end you can kind of spice it up.
[00:05:34] Trevor Connor: It’s an interesting thought and it’s one of those things of, is this a way to get a little more out of your base training?
Let’s start with the study. I do think they make a good point. Even though I don’t love their protocol, they cited a lot of other research that I do think had some good validity to it that made the case one effort. In the middle of a long ride isn’t going to produce enough autonomic stress to really change things up.
And I do think that was a valuable lesson here, but I agree with you, Julie, that there is a certain point where if you are sprinting for every town line, it’s not the base ride anymore. It’s just racing.
[00:06:08] Chris Case: Yeah. Maybe the challenge here is the message you get from this. Particular study and some of the others they cited is that you’re not going to ruin, destroy, taint, the adaptations you would gain if you kept it purely.
Under a certain wattage or heart rate, sprinting once or twice here or there, or even doing a three minute effort is not going to hurt you. But sometimes people think well. A little isn’t gonna hurt me. Maybe I’ll try to, you know, they try to work the edges a little bit more and they push it more and they push it more.
And then, yeah, you end up either doing a tempo ride or you do so many of these efforts in the ride that yes, it has changed. The purpose of that ride. And so the rider has to take responsibility for sort of sticking to the limits here. Yeah.
[00:07:04] Trevor Connor: But Julia, I liked where you were going with this, that, you know, they make the point in here that even a steady zone two ride, you’re gonna see a little cardiac drift.
You’re gonna see a little more strain on the body towards the end. So if you’re only gonna intersperse one or two efforts, you’re probably gonna get less bang for the buck doing it at the beginning while the body’s still fresh. If you do a three, four hour ride and you put in one or two efforts towards the end, your body’s gonna probably really feel those efforts.
[00:07:31] Julie Young: Right. I agree with that. And then I think you probably have the best of all worlds, but I also, kind of going back to what Chris had said, that was a concern in my mind with this is like knowing. Endurance athletes and many are high achievers hard chargers, and they often will fall victim to the, if it’s not hurting me, it’s not helping me.
And I know how hard it is to impress upon the endurance athlete to really be disciplined with those zone two rides, you know? And if we kind of give them the green light, like, yeah, it’s fine, you know? Throw in some intensity. As Chris said, you know, if a little is good, then maybe a lot becomes better.
[00:08:08] Chris Case: That’s
[00:08:10] Trevor Connor: right. This is exactly that, and that’s the key message. And they even brought this up. They referenced the Dr. Seiler study about autonomic stress.
[00:08:17] Chris Case: Yes.
[00:08:18] Trevor Connor: That high intensity produces autonomic stress, and I think their point is one three minute effort or a couple sprints. In the middle of a long ride isn’t gonna produce enough autonomic stress to affect your recovery.
[00:08:30] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:30] Trevor Connor: But there is a tipping point. Yeah. And if you start throwing in a bunch, then it’s no longer a long, steady ride, you’re gonna be feeling the impacts.
[00:08:38] Chris Case: Yeah. Hard to identify that tipping point though.
[00:08:41] Trevor Connor: Yeah. Which they didn’t do here, and I was, I think they said at the end, that’s research that needs to be done.
[00:08:46] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:46] Trevor Connor: Is, is how much, when do you hit the tipping point? Another thing that I found interesting in here that I do think was a real valid result of the study, there was one big difference they saw between the two groups, which was the group that did the three minute effort in the middle, saw lower blood lactates later in the ride than the other group, and their explanation was, you see lower blood lactates at a given intensity when you deplete glycogen.
So that three minute effort might have depleted enough glycogen. That they’re now being more reliant on fat oxidization, which is something you want in a long ride.
[00:09:21] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:21] Trevor Connor: So that is a potential benefit.
[00:09:23] Julie Young: I also thought it was interesting with the cardiac drift and the blood lactate levels that they had felt that those may not be valid markers for physiologic strain as a result of their study.
[00:09:38] Trevor Connor: No, they did bring up the whole question of durability. So durability is something that’s being heavily researched right now about your ability to maintain a particular level and something we’ve been trying to figure out how to measure. And one of the most common metrics is looking at that change in cardiac drift.
How is your heart rate doing relative to power? So if heart rate’s going up relative to power, you’re losing durability. And yeah, I forgot about that, but they did question that in the study, didn’t they?
[00:10:05] Julie Young: Because they said that those two factors did not translate over to the other variables, such as muscle oxygenation, body temperature, energy expenditure, and the respiratory exchange expenditure,
[00:10:19] Trevor Connor: which is an interesting point.
I don’t think I have an answer to that.
[00:10:22] Julie Young: The other thing that I thought was interesting or I guess that I picked up on in, in this study, and I feel like we’re seeing it so often, or maybe it’s being brought to our attention now that a lot of studies are indicating you can achieve the same adaptations from moderate to high intensity training with moderate and high intensity training.
So basically they’re compatible in the fact that they’re both promoting fat oxidation, both creating that molecular signaling. To trigger PGC one alpha resulting in mitochondrial biogenesis. So I just, I thought that was interesting. Again, kind of pitching that idea of you can attain those same adaptations with both moderate and high intensity.
[00:11:03] Trevor Connor: You know, this is where I go back to, I think it was Dr. Larson who wrote about this, that they produce the, these adaptations through different pathways and the pathways are additive. So it’s not an either or. It’s if you try to do it through all low intensity, you’re gonna get disappointing results. If you try to do it through all high intensity, you’re gonna get disappointing results.
You need to hit it through both of the main pathways to really get the sort of adaptive signal that you want.
[00:11:32] Julie Young: That’s a great point. And I think too, just like one other thing I just wanted to add before we wrap this up is, I mean, personally in base training with the athletes that I train, I have them doing like high intensity work or a variety of work throughout base season, but in more spontaneous ways as opposed to just really strict.
Kind of structured intervals, saving that mental energy for later in the year. But, you know, jumping into a fast-paced group ride, or I think doing like the strength work is also a way to get some intensity too. So I’m not as religious and strict about falling up. Pure zone two menu during the off season, do you feel like, yeah, maybe you push your aerobic threshold up, but then your other attributes are dropping.
So I think it is important to provide just a minimal, almost minimal dose in terms of stimulating those other energy pathways.
[00:12:24] Chris Case: Yeah. So in these athletes, you’re working with Julie. How do you know where their tipping point is?
[00:12:32] Julie Young: I guess for me it’s just being very strategic in terms of placing those workouts into training, making sure we’re getting the main work done in terms of what Trevor had mentioned about the objectives of neuromuscular work.
And that’s more like lower intensity to moderate intensity and then the strength work. And then, you know, again, like it’s every, maybe every week or every other week, throwing in a fast paced group ride and just keeping an eye on how they’re recovering and ’cause even though off season is. Low intensity, it is still quite a bit of load between the strength work and the base work.
So just keeping an eye on all those recovery metrics.
[00:13:11] Trevor Connor: Mm-hmm. This kind of goes to something that Grant has said on the show a few times ’cause he always says, oh, I’m seen as the all high intensity all year round guy. He goes, yes, I do high intensity with my athletes in the base season. But he is like, it’s just taste in the bay season.
[00:13:26] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:27] Trevor Connor: I don’t have them do the sort of work where their tongue is hanging out and they’re dying until we get into the season.
[00:13:32] Chris Case: Yeah.
[00:13:32] Trevor Connor: So I think that gets a little bit of what you’re saying, Julie, is, you know, maybe the message from that study is. A little bit not gonna hurt you that much. You need to keep it under control and there might potentially be some benefits from just doing a little bit.
[00:13:45] Chris Case: Yep, that’s right.
[00:13:46] Trevor Connor: So, you know, the thing that, like I said, that really got me thinking about this, was the conversation with Neil and did pull up a study that I found really interesting called the role of high intensity Interval Training. In neuromuscular adaptations, implications for strength and power development.
So important to point out, this was not focused on cyclists, this was just looking at athletes in general. Mm-hmm. And really talking about ways to produce those neuromuscular adaptations that Neil was getting at. And you know, I thought it’d be really interesting. We’ve talked a lot about neuromuscular adaptations on the show, but we’ve never really dived into what they are.
And to me, the most interesting part of this review was right at the beginning when they explained what they mean by that. So I’ll read the sentence, but I think we should dive into each of these a little bit.
[00:14:34] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:34] Trevor Connor: Say these adaptations include enhanced motor unit recruitment, synchronization firing rate, muscle fiber composition, and neuromuscular coordination.
[00:14:47] Chris Case: I’d love to hear you define those further and give examples of each. Do it quickly too.
[00:14:53] Trevor Connor: Yeah. Let’s dive into each, so give a little bit of background. So when we’re talking about a neuromuscular unit, you have lots of fibers in your muscles. You have a nerve that enervates those fibers. It is not a one-to-one.
It’s not like you have one nerve for each fiber. You will often have multiple fibers that are connected to a single nerve. So that’s called your neuromuscular unit? Mm-hmm. Or your motor unit. Within your muscles, depending on the size of the muscles, you’re gonna have many motor units. So looking at your quadriceps, you’re talking hundreds of motor units.
[00:15:27] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:27] Trevor Connor: And that’s how you control the amount of effort you put out. Because a single neuromotor unit, it’s all or nothing proposition it either contracts maximally. Or it doesn’t contract at all. So if you wanna do a light effort, you might only contract a few motor units in the muscle. You wanna contract maximally.
You’re recruiting most of the motor units in a muscle. There’s a lot of coordination involved here to get the most out of the muscles. So you want them all firing at the same time. You want them all relaxing at the same time. And if you don’t have that, if you don’t have that synchronization, they can be fighting one another, which can cause muscle damage and also reduce the amount of power you can put out.
[00:16:12] Chris Case: Right.
[00:16:13] Trevor Connor: Firing rate is how quickly do they fire and relax so that you can do a more explosive motion.
[00:16:18] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:19] Trevor Connor: When they’re talking about the muscle fiber composition, that’s your type one, type two, type two A to be fibers, and if you want a more explosive, powerful, you really need those type two fibers. And then you can also talk about the coordination between different muscles.
You have many muscles in your leg that are all involved in the cycling motion. You want them working in sync. So you don’t want a muscle that bends the knee contracting at the same time as the muscle that straightens the knee. ’cause then you’re going to lose power. They’re gonna be fighting one another.
So you want them contracting in sync, making sure you’re getting that nice smooth movement. These are all the things we’re talking about with neuromuscular recruitment, and believe it or not, people can be, you know, particularly if you have somebody who’s just getting on the bike, there can be a bit of a neuromuscular mess.
[00:17:10] Chris Case: Yeah. I would think that most people, or a lot of people at the beginning of their particularly cycling, which has all these coordinated. Pedal stroke movements involved wouldn’t put any thought into it. They’d get on the bike and they’d just start moving their legs, and it would kind of be this innate, natural, instinctual behavior.
But what you are saying is that a lot can be gained by teaching your body in practicing the coordinated movement of the various muscles that are involved in the pedal stroke. Yep. As one example,
[00:17:42] Trevor Connor: and to a degree you can see this, you get, of
[00:17:44] Chris Case: course,
[00:17:44] Trevor Connor: a kid on a bike who’s brand new to a bike. You’re gonna see.
That’s not a smooth pedal stroke. They’re gonna be all over the place. Mm-hmm. ’cause they’re training their legs how to do this. Where if you look at a pro on a bike. It is just perfectly smooth, coordinated circular pedal stroke. It’s actually quite something to watch.
[00:18:01] Chris Case: Yeah. Les, right? Trevor Les. That’s what it’s called.
[00:18:05] Trevor Connor: Okay, sure.
[00:18:05] Chris Case: In French. Julie, are you familiar with the term
[00:18:09] Julie Young: pl?
[00:18:09] Chris Case: Yes, that’s right. The guy who’s closest to Quebec over here doesn’t know the French word.
[00:18:13] Julie Young: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:14] Trevor Connor: Yeah. I’ve been living in the US a long time.
[00:18:16] Chris Case: I know.
[00:18:17] Trevor Connor: I admit.
[00:18:18] Julie Young: Yeah. I think for me, like just reading this study, to your point, Trevor, I love the fact they were more specific in their definitions and descriptions.
I think oftentimes when you read these articles about HI training, it’s so obscure, like what is the. Exact definition. I was grateful for this particular article review because it did also define it as like 20 seconds to a few minutes. But I do think it is interesting because of course we know like the work we’re doing in the gym is very general, and then we take it even a step further when we’re doing it on the bike and it becomes much more specific.
And so this paper does provide a lot of different. Options to implement this kind of work, and I think about the strength work kind of sets that foundation. Then personally for me, like I really wanna make sure my athletes are moving well and they have good aptitude and they have good postural control, good limb alignment.
Before I would introduce plyometrics. Into their program and then the plyometrics in the gym, then we can make those more specific on the bike. And I personally think, you know, you can have a rendition of plyometrics on the bike doing something more explosive, and I think about that. Often when I’m working on these workouts that they oftentimes have several objectives.
It’s not just like the energy pathway that we so often talk about, but to me it’s training cyclists to be able to stabilize through their body to get that force into the pedal. So I think for me, that’s like a. On the bike when I think about plyometrics or you know, think about that explosive effort, it’s really just helping that cyclist stabilize through their body to get more of that power into their pedal.
So it’s not just what that lower body is doing, but it’s how the upper body and lower body are working together.
[00:20:06] Chris Case: Trevor, we did a episode not too long ago about the differences between economy and efficiency. What are we talking about here? Are we talking about those two in relation to this neuromuscular work?
[00:20:18] Trevor Connor: So neuromuscular work is gonna be much more about economy. ’cause again, efficiency is just how much of the energy. The muscle is consuming, is going into the actual emotion. And neuromuscular training doesn’t help that. But you know, when you’re talking about two muscles fighting one another, you’re losing a lot of economy.
Mm-hmm. So this would be more of an economy conversation. Julie, what you were talking about. What I kind of found interesting about this review is again, it wasn’t designed for cyclists. In some ways it was written more towards team sports and strength athletes.
[00:20:49] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:50] Trevor Connor: So even though they were talking about HIT training, I think when we think about HIT training, we think about tabatas.
We think about 30 thirties or one minute on, one minute off. They touched on that, but not a lot. They really focused on three types of HIT training. That to me. I would think of as being neuromuscular training more than HI training. So one was sprint intervals, it’s that six to ten second all out effort.
And Neil Henderson was talking about those a lot. And I like the fact that they go through these, their three forms of HI training and talk about what sides of the neuromuscular development they aid. So sprint intervals is about power development and explosive force. And again, they talk about short six, 10 seconds.
With long recoveries.
[00:21:37] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:37] Trevor Connor: So it’s just hitting the legs as hard as you can. The next one they talked about is resistance base. Hit training for strength and power, and that’s kind of the closest they had to, to bota style interval. They were talking about 20 to 40 seconds, but still to me this would be more strength training.
[00:21:54] Chris Case: Mm-hmm. In the gym.
[00:21:55] Trevor Connor: And this is about muscular endurance and fatigue resistance. And then the last type that they talk about that Julie, you were just discussing is plyometrics. So plyometrics is a gym type workout. But it’s a very specific type where you do a huge eccentric load on the muscles and then immediately move into a strong concentric
[00:22:16] Chris Case: mm-hmm.
[00:22:17] Trevor Connor: Movement. So the classic example is box jumps.
[00:22:21] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:21] Trevor Connor: Where you, for example, stand on top of a box, you jump off of it. So as you land on the ground, you’re kind of bending the legs, so you’re putting a big eccentric load on your muscles, and then you try as quickly as possible to go back into the contraction and you jump.
[00:22:37] Chris Case: Yep.
[00:22:37] Trevor Connor: Very damaging to your muscles. If you haven’t done plyometrics before and you go and do them, you won’t be walking for a few days.
[00:22:43] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:43] Trevor Connor: But huge benefits, and they said that really helps. Injury prevention, elastic strength, reactive power, and rapid force production.
[00:22:51] Suzy Sanchez: Yep,
[00:22:51] Trevor Connor: that’s right.
[00:22:54] Suzy Sanchez: Hey listeners.
I’m Suzy Sanchez from USA Cycling. If you like what you hear on Fast Talk Podcast, you’re the kind of coach we want as part of our certified coach program. Fast Talk Labs is producing 50 courses on physiology, training, athlete management, and the business of coaching. All for USA Cycling coaches. Visit usa cycling.org/coaches to learn more.
[00:23:15] Chris Case: I am not going to change the subject, but I do want to sort of plant a mention of an article we just published on the website.
[00:23:23] Trevor Connor: Yeah.
[00:23:24] Chris Case: It has to do with the distinction between training, which we would associate with fitness gains and practicing, which is more neuromuscular skill-based stuff. And Will Murray wrote it.
He’s a friend of Fast Talk Labs. He’s a sports performance mental strength coach and has a long history in triathlon coaching and things like that, and he wrote it, and it has to do with this. You could spend your entire life focusing on fitness gains and we all do. A lot of us do, and a lot of us simultaneously ignore the practice aspect of the sports that we participate in, and therefore sort of give up on some of the arguably easier.
Or at least more time efficient gains because some of this stuff doesn’t take a whole lot.
[00:24:11] Trevor Connor: No, not at all.
[00:24:12] Chris Case: To get significant gains out of, and so the article on Fast Talk labs.com is all about this distinction, and then some of the, it gets into it for more than just cycling because he’s a tri coach. He talks about swimming drills, running drills, neuromuscular cycling stuff, transitions, things like that where you can practice them.
Some of them are movements, some of them are just kind of tweaks in mindset. This stuff is valuable and relatively easy, and it should accompany fitness training, not just be an afterthought.
[00:24:44] Trevor Connor: I think you’re touching on a really important point, which is some of this stuff can take up a lot of time. Like I can give you a 45 minute plyometrics workout.
Sure. We’ll have you crawling for a week. If you really wanna do that, great. You don’t need to just go in and doing box jumps, like get a box or a bench, do 10 box jumps three, four times a week. You’re gonna see enormous benefits from that. Going back to the previous study, which said a little bit on your long rides isn’t gonna do a lot of damage.
I think we can make the argument that throwing in five, six short six second sprints, you’re gonna get some neuromuscular gains outta that without producing too much autonomic stress, and maybe that’s gonna be additive.
[00:25:20] Chris Case: Yeah. I think Grant is the one that says he basically ends a good portion of all of his rides with a single sprint or a couple sprints leading into his neighborhood and up the.
Small hill to get to his driveway.
[00:25:34] Trevor Connor: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:35] Chris Case: Just as a sort of a routine, but also with these gains in mind.
[00:25:40] Trevor Connor: Yep.
[00:25:40] Chris Case: Subtle but effective.
[00:25:42] Trevor Connor: I think what this reminded me of and what Neil reminded me of personally, is sometimes we oversimplify the adaptations we’re trying to produce, which is we just think, oh, we’re just trying to improve mitochondrial density and get our muscles a little stronger.
Then we’ll be fantastic on the bike. What this is saying is there are so many other things, you know, synchronization, elastic strength, and the tendons rapid force production. I can keep going through the giant list that they had in here. Mm-hmm. There are so many different factors in our muscles and all these things we need to be training and you don’t think of them as being that big a thing, but when they all add up a, you’re gonna be a much better athlete.
[00:26:23] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:24] Trevor Connor: B and almost more important, if you’re getting older, there’s, these are the things that are gonna keep you functional.
[00:26:30] Chris Case: Yeah,
[00:26:31] Trevor Connor: you can have very strong legs, but if you don’t have the recruitment patterns, if you’re having a whole bunch of orphan muscle fibers, if you’re losing that elasticity in your tendons, you’re gonna start having functional issues.
[00:26:43] Chris Case: Yeah. I feel like these are the small things that make you a more durable athlete. In the traditional sense of the word durable rather than this new concept of durability. But in some ways they go hand in hand. But these small things, if you neglect them, a whole host of little things are gonna start cropping up and then it, those little things are gonna turn into a big thing that maybe keeps you off the bike and then it sets you back for a lot longer.
[00:27:07] Julie Young: Yeah. The thing I appreciated too, about this paper is that it. Reminds us of the mind and body and that these hit intervals, or the plyometrics, you know, in the gym or on the bike, really enhances your brain to muscle ability. The other thing I thought was really interesting, which I’d never really heard before, but these kind of efforts train the body to override the central nervous system inhibitory response, which I mean for good or bad, but basically that you know you can improve your movement.
Force under fatigue, which I think that a lot of times defines cycling, especially like sports, like mountain biking, cyclo cross, when you’re under that extreme fatigue, but you’re still having to make precise movements.
[00:27:52] Chris Case: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
[00:27:53] Trevor Connor: You know, I’ll also tell you as an example, personal example, but I experienced this running, you know, we’ve been talking about the fact and joking about the fact that I’m a really slow runner.
[00:28:02] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:02] Trevor Connor: Even though I’ve got a pretty decent aerobic engine.
[00:28:05] Chris Case: You’re right.
[00:28:06] Trevor Connor: I went in and had my running gate tested.
[00:28:08] Chris Case: Hmm.
[00:28:09] Trevor Connor: And it was kind of funny watching the guy who was testing me, his response to me, you could see he was just sitting there going, wow, buddy.
[00:28:17] Chris Case: When did this happen?
[00:28:18] Trevor Connor: This was in early December.
[00:28:20] Chris Case: Oh, okay.
[00:28:21] Trevor Connor: And they have a rating of your running gate. And I was 29%.
[00:28:26] Chris Case: Ah. Which is really bad. Yeah.
[00:28:30] Trevor Connor: And so you, I’m sitting there going, why am I such a slow runner? Nothing to do with my aerobic engine.
[00:28:34] Chris Case: Sure.
[00:28:35] Trevor Connor: I have a really bad gait that I need to work on. And again, my guess is to improve that. Most of what I need to be doing is neuromuscular work running.
[00:28:46] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:47] Trevor Connor: Throwing in some sprints. So he gave me a whole group of exercises, so this should be kind of the main point here. He didn’t go do this when you run. He didn’t give me suggestions out running,
[00:28:59] Chris Case: these are drills that you
[00:29:00] Trevor Connor: would do to supple. What he gave me is a whole set of exercises to do in the gym.
[00:29:04] Chris Case: Yeah.
[00:29:05] Trevor Connor: That basically are gonna train that neuromuscular recruitment. ’cause that’s the problem until you get those muscles firing. Right.
[00:29:11] Chris Case: Your GA’s never gonna improve. Right.
[00:29:13] Julie Young: Was it your glute medias?
[00:29:14] Trevor Connor: Yeah. And I’ve seen that on the bike too for some reason. Two years ago it just stopped firing. So Julie showing, you know your stuff.
Yeah, no, that’s exactly it. For two years it hasn’t been firing. I’ve been working on the bike. And running, and for some reason it is ornery and just doesn’t wanna work anymore.
[00:29:29] Julie Young: Hmm. It is interesting though, like you said about when we run and we ride faster, we’re better. Like we’re more efficient. So I think a lot of times too, obviously you have to have the base in place, but I do think for running, doing like 200 meter on, 200 meter off, or hill sprints or that sort of thing, it’s just like cycling.
It gives you that specific strength and power.
[00:29:50] Trevor Connor: I think that’s why sprints are so important as part of this neuromuscular work, because if you’re running or riding in zone one, there’s a whole lot of ways your body can produce that pace or that power, and a lot of them can be the bad ways.
[00:30:04] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:05] Trevor Connor: If you’re trying to sprint all out, that’s where your body goes, oh, okay.
I’ve gotta do work here. I gotta do this. Right.
[00:30:10] Chris Case: Yeah.
[00:30:11] Trevor Connor: Otherwise it’s, we’re just never gonna get the speed we want.
[00:30:13] Julie Young: Don’t you think it’s just more mental, like your brain and your muscles are just more engaged? You’re just more focused?
[00:30:20] Trevor Connor: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:20] Julie Young: Yeah. I was gonna say, I mean, I see it. I’m sure you guys see it too.
Like if you look at athletes and training peaks in there, they have that left to right. They can be all over the place if they’re doing long endurance. But when they start doing their harder work that become more balanced and they’re pedaling left to right.
[00:30:36] Trevor Connor: Yeah. Isn’t that interesting? When somebody’s going out and just doing an easy recovery ride, they can have a pretty bad imbalance, but it somewhat disappears when they’re doing intervals.
[00:30:43] Chris Case: Yeah.
[00:30:43] Julie Young: Yep.
[00:30:44] Trevor Connor: So the last thing I’m gonna point out, which they also had in this review that goes also back to what Neil was saying, is they said strength training. So actual resistance, strength training combined with the, what they’re calling hip work. But I’d really call neuromuscular work,
[00:31:01] Chris Case: right.
[00:31:02] Trevor Connor: Is very additive of one another.
You know, you have to be careful about over fatiguing, but there’s real benefits to both. And I think Neil was there a long time ago and that’s why he was saying, I have him to do stuff out in the bike. And suddenly, obviously they didn’t have in this review because it wasn’t focused on cyclists, is doing cadence work.
[00:31:18] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:19] Trevor Connor: So high cadence work. Low cadence work. So Neil was talking about, particularly in the Bay season, I have ’em doing low cadence work. I’m doing high cadence work, I have them do short sprints. I have them in the gym. What you’re seeing is him synthesizing what we are seeing in this review. Working all those different sides of the neuromuscular recruitment and getting that really nice firing pattern in the base season.
So when they get into the season and do the really hard work, their legs are ready for it.
[00:31:46] Chris Case: Yep.
[00:31:46] Trevor Connor: The more I’ve been thinking about this, the more like that is crucial stuff. Yeah. This deserves a big focus.
[00:31:52] Chris Case: So that should answer the question of whether people can add some intensity and a whole bunch of variety to the base season.
The answer is a resounding yes.
[00:32:01] Trevor Connor: Yep. So I mean, I’ll give you an example. I went out and did my zone one-ish two ride on Sunday. I haven’t done a four hour ride in a month, so it started zone two, it ended zone 0.5.
[00:32:12] Chris Case: Yep.
[00:32:12] Trevor Connor: It wasn’t very good at the end, but I was doing cadence the whole time.
[00:32:18] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:18] Trevor Connor: I was experimenting with that, so I was doing high cadence work.
I was doing low cadence work, but never, it wasn’t like I was doing low cadence work at 300 watts. Yeah. It was all low intensity. Mm-hmm. Just altering the cadence. Mm-hmm. I left her eye going, wow, I really felt that. And it was like I was feeling it in the right ways.
[00:32:35] Chris Case: Yeah. Good.
[00:32:36] Trevor Connor: Julie, what’s your thoughts?
[00:32:38] Julie Young: I guess what I was thinking about was that athletes love to feel like they’re always progressing.
Like every day is making a difference, and to me, integrating some of these. This variety into base. I mean, it’s not that you’re just creating variety for the sake of variety. It’s also super productive. And I think it’s just more engaging for the athlete. They’re more mindful, more purposeful, as opposed to just the monotony or kind of being mindless with it.
So like you said, Trevor, just throwing in that cadence work, it provides a focus.
[00:33:07] Trevor Connor: Yeah. Made it kind of fun.
[00:33:08] Julie Young: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:09] Trevor Connor: You should have seen the crazy workout I built, like every. Five, six minutes. It was giving me something new. None of it hard.
[00:33:14] Chris Case: Yeah,
[00:33:15] Trevor Connor: just different cadence work and it actually kind of made a boring ride.
Interesting.
[00:33:18] Chris Case: Exactly. Yeah. I think those little things make it far more engaging in some ways. Doesn’t have to be hard or complex, just something to think about. Something to feel maybe even a little bit more presence towards, like you’re having to think about that pedal stroke. You’re having to think about cadence and coordination and all these things, which is different from just going out there and pedaling around and staring up at the sky and being a little bit absent from the ride.
[00:33:44] Trevor Connor: Yeah. What I found really interesting was I built a two and a half hour routine, and I think the highest wattage I ever hit the entire ride was 220 watts.
[00:33:54] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:54] Trevor Connor: I was never going hard, but I was two hours into this routine and going, I can’t do the final half an hour. It was fatiguing, not in a, I’ve been putting out a lot of watts Fatiguing.
[00:34:03] Chris Case: Yeah.
[00:34:04] Trevor Connor: It was just that neural load. Mm-hmm. You could feel it. You could feel it was different and I couldn’t do the final half an hour.
[00:34:09] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:09] Julie Young: Athletes like to feel that way.
[00:34:11] Trevor Connor: Yep.
[00:34:11] Julie Young: You know, and it’s not, like you said, it’s not detrimental. It’s just, it’s a different type of fatigue, but it’s also productive.
But again, I think they love to feel like they’re doing work.
[00:34:21] Trevor Connor: So maybe that’s our message. Give this all a try. See how it works for you. Do not do too much hard efforts. Keep it sparing. I think that was the message from that, but absolutely. Bring in some of this neural work.
[00:34:31] Julie Young: One thing that came to my mind again was just because we can, should we, we’ve just provided a menu of different options and of course you still need to have sound decision making.
Always have a reason why you’re doing what you’re doing. Because like for me, like I think about it and base training. Is more that general strength in the gym. And then we’re doing some plyometrics, again, more general and that more base training on the bike with little doses of intensity. But then once we transition and we’re doing more maintenance strength, you know, we don’t like necessarily have to include these more general plyometrics off the bike as well as the intensity on the bike.
So I think you just have to always be reckoning all those different. Pieces of intensity that you’re putting into a plan and just not overload.
[00:35:21] Trevor Connor: Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, you’re making a really good point and this is where you have to be really careful of getting into that mindset of more is better. This is where you have to sprinkle it, and particularly anything that does require high intensity, like the sprints, you gotta be careful about those plyometrics is really damaging.
I think it’s essential to have a good strength training program, but have one built or get a good one. I would say the cadence work. As long as you’re not increasing your intensity with that is something where you don’t have to be nearly as sparing because it’s not physiologically hard. Yeah, it might be a little mental draining on you, but it’s not physiologically hard, so that’s where you can say, yeah, I can do a whole bunch of cadence work.
The rest of the stuff. Yeah, you gotta be really sparing with it. Is that what you’re saying, Julie? Or am I getting that wrong?
[00:36:04] Julie Young: No, that’s exactly what I was saying. It’s more just the high intensity work that we’ve done, high intensity and base, and we can’t just carry that over and then start adding the high intensity on the bike as well.
[00:36:16] Chris Case: I think that. For those out there, that commute, that the cadence stuff is super easy to add to your hour. Mm-hmm. Commute ride in the morning or afternoon or both even. And you can’t really overdo it. And if you’re like me and your. Coming from a more rural area into a city where there it’s kind of stop and go at some point.
Then, you know, don’t launch from every stoplight, but yeah, switch it up, do locate stuff, high cadence stuff, and that’s a great starting place.
[00:36:46] Trevor Connor: Yeah, and it doesn’t have to be complicated. My one recommendation is most of your time should be hiking, so you don’t want to turn yourself into a tank.
[00:36:54] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:55] Trevor Connor: So do something like 20, 25 minutes at a hundred RPM.
Targeting a hundred RRP M. That’s really hard to do out in the road. Then 10 minutes, 12 minutes at low cadence, 55, 60 RRP M and then go back to 20, 25 minutes high cadence.
[00:37:11] Chris Case: Yep.
[00:37:11] Trevor Connor: And just mix it up like that. Or what you see a lot of pros do is they’ll hit a hill and do repeats on the hill, and one time they’ll go up at.
Trying to hold a hundred RRP M. Another time to go up at 40, 50 RRP M.
[00:37:23] Chris Case: Mm-hmm. Yep.
[00:37:24] Trevor Connor: And just alternate it.
[00:37:24] Chris Case: Yep. Excellent. That was another episode of Fast Talk. Subscribe to Fast Talk wherever you prefer to find your favorite podcasts. Be sure to leave us a rating and a review. And don’t forget, we’re now on YouTube.
Give us a like, give us a subscribe and help us reach new audiences. As always, remember that the thoughts and opinions expressed on Fast Talk are those of the individual. We love your feedback, so join the conversation@forums.fast talk labs.com or join us on social media at Fast Talk Labs for access to our endurance sports knowledge base.
Continuing education for coaches as well as our in-person and remote athlete services. Head to Fast talk labs.com. For Julie Young and Trevor Connor. I’m Chris Case. Thanks for listening.
