The Future of Endurance Sports! With Dr. Andy Pruitt, Kristen Legan, Rob Pickels, and Dr. Stephen Seiler

What will the future of endurance sports look like? From training to research to racing, we examine what is to come.

200th episode video podcast


For our milestone 200the episode, we address one big question: What does the future hold? And we attempt to answer that question by looking at several aspects of what’s to come: from the future of sports medicine to the future of bike racing to the future of exercise physiology research.

We first address the future of sports medicine. After 40 years of watching and, more importantly, influencing where endurance sports have gone, there could be no better guest than Dr. Andy Pruitt to help us predict where we will go next. What does the future of sports medicine hold? Will the development of products make us all better, healthier endurance athletes? How will bike fit change?

Kristen Legan is, in many ways, representative of modern cycling: she doesn’t just race, she doesn’t just coach. She doesn’t just do road or gravel or bikepacking events. In fact, she started as a triathlete, then evolved into a ‘cross racer, and now she does a bit of everything, from ultra-events to MTB marathon races. And more and more cyclists are doing this same thing. Kristen helps us answer the question: What does the future of bike racing hold?

Never at a loss for a well-reasoned remark about anything to do with training or cycling or physiology, Rob Pickels helps us put a point on our discussion of the future of endurance training. What is the future of things that didn’t exist five years ago—things like wearables (Whoop, Super Sapiens, etc.), virtual racing, and training?

Finally, we couldn’t call it a special episode without Dr. Stephen Seiler. He first appeared nearly 150 episodes ago and he’s been with us, if not on podcasts, then in spirit ever since. The Jay Z of physiology, the godfather of polarized training, Mr. 4×8 himself, Dr. Stephen Seiler addresses the question: What does the future of endurance physiology research look like?

From the very beginning, this show has been driven by the audience—we aim to serve you by exploring the topics you want to know more about, and by answering your thoughtful questions. This episode continues that legacy: We gathered your best questions, and chose a few to answer on some of the most popular themes we’ve discussed in the past: polarized vs. sweet spot training; muscle soreness; weight; and nutrition.

Believe it or not, we also include some bloopers in this special 200th episode. You wouldn’t believe the dirt that various cameras and microphones have collected on us over the years. Don’t judge!

Finally, Trevor and Chris offer their take-home on the last 200 episodes—the most important thing each has learned from the journey that is Fast Talk.

Episode Transcript

Ernest Boscovich, Trevor Connor, Rob Pickels, Kristen Legan, Dr. Andy Pruitt, Matt Winstead, Duncan Lally, Chris Case, Dr. Stephen Seiler, Ryan Kohler

200th Intro

Chris Case 00:11
Welcome. It’s 200! We’ve made it, I can’t believe we’ve recorded 199 episodes of Fast Talk. This is number 200. This is a special episode. If you’re listening to us right now know that you can also watch us you can see Trevor’s pretty face. You can see my marginally pretty face. Just catch the video. This is a special episode, we’re gonna start off with some fascinating statistics about the show. Trevor, you have a list. Let’s get into some of those statistics now, shall we?

Trevor Connor 00:44
Let’s do it. So Chris, where do we want to start?

Chris Case 00:47
I think the collective IQ of the guests we’ve had on the show, I think you’ve calculated this number. 1 billion. A billion, that’s correct.

Trevor Connor 00:58
And multiplied by our IQ’s… 1 billion.

Chris Case 01:03
Yes. The number of hours it would take somebody to listen to all 199 episodes if they needed to catch up right now.

Trevor Connor 01:11
Oh you calculated this, but 235 consecutive hours, but did you factor in recovery time?

Chris Case 01:16
I did not. I did not.

Trevor Connor 01:18
So it’d take a little longer, don’t forget the recovery.

Chris Case 01:20
Yeah a couple months. How many places have we recorded this show? How many different quote unquote studios because we know I think we’ve mentioned not all of them? Are studios like this fancy place.

Trevor Connor 01:33
We have had broom closets. We have had my second bedroom. I have tried closet I’ve actually recorded inside a car.

Chris Case 01:41
Wow. Really? Yes. Okay. I have recorded many times, in fact, in my childhood room in my parents house, which is weird.

Trevor Connor 01:50
I remember that. Yeah. My absolute best was I went into the spare bedroom at my parents place and it was so noisy outside. I put the mic on the bed, and then had to kneel at the side of the bed as if I was praying and put a blanket over top of me at the muffle the sound very good did an hour episode like that

Chris Case 02:11
The things we’ve done, the things we’ve done to produce the show it’s pretty amazing but I think the point is that this show is, it’s never stopped. It’s been years and it’s always come out and we’ve always within reason hit that target. Launching on time and and serving the audience that that really drives this show.

Trevor Connor 02:31
So Chris there’s a statistic that I got to ask you? – sure – How many bad Canadian jokes have you cracked?

Chris Case 02:37
Infinity is a number right?

Trevor Connor 02:39
I believe so.

Chris Case 02:40
Just call it that at this point. How many times have you used the term PGC1 Alpha?

Trevor Connor 02:47
Enough to get your really drunk if we made a drinking game out of it?

Chris Case 02:51
Where is our beer? Or whiskey or what’s your preferred drink? Cognac right?

Trevor Connor 02:57
No I’m a Bailey’s guy.

Chris Case 02:59
The Bailey’s guy. Weird. You are Irish.

Trevor Connor 03:02
There you go.

Chris Case 03:03
Yeah. How many PubMed articles have you downloaded and read in the production of this show?

Trevor Connor 03:10
I don’t have a clue.

Chris Case 03:12
I bet it’s in the 1000s.

Trevor Connor 03:14
Are there 1000? Yeah, there probably are.

Chris Case 03:16
Yes, there are 1000, I bet it was in the 1000s.

Trevor Connor 03:20
That’s horrifying, but quite possible.

Chris Case 03:22
Yeah. How many interns did you hire to check all these statistics before we aired them?

Trevor Connor 03:28
Exactly, zero.

Chris Case 03:30
Um, but in all seriousness, we hope you enjoy this 200th episode. We have many great guests. Trevor is going to tell you about them. We have a Q&A segment as well. Trevor, who will we listen to? Or who will be on the show today with us?

Trevor Connor 03:45
Yeah, we got some guests that we’re really excited about. For this one. We have Dr. Andy Pruitt coming in, Kristen Legan, Rob Pickels and of course how can we have the two others episode without Dr. Seiler.

Chris Case 03:58
Very good. Do you want to say it together? The tagline, 123… Let’s let’s make it fast.

Trevor Connor 04:04
I get to do it now?

Chris Case 04:06
Yes, you do.

Trevor Connor 04:07
I’m excited!

A Message From Ryan

Ryan Kohler 04:13
Listeners, we have fast talk can do more for you. Join Fast Talk Laboratories, our new sports science training center and you can dive deeper into the training science you love hearing a fast talk. At Fast Talk Labs we offer pathways, which are like a masterclass exploring key training concepts. We have hundreds of interviews, lectures, webinars and articles from experts like Dr. Steven Seiler, Tim Cusick, Dr. Iñigo San Millán, Coach Neil Henderson, Dr. Andy Pruitt, Sebastian Weber and many more. And our members enjoy special member pricing on our solutions and services like inside testing, coaching help sessions, sports nutrition guidance and more. Learn more and join today at

Dr. Andy Pruitt Kicks off a Conversation on the Future of Endurance Sports

Chris Case 05:00
After 40 years of being a part of and influencing the direction that endurance sports has taken, we couldn’t think of a better person to be a part of this 200th episode where we talk about the future of endurance sports. Welcome, Dr. Andy Pruitt to Fast Talk.

Dr. Andy Pruitt 05:15
Thanks, Chris. And Trevor. It’s a real honor to be here.

Chris Case 05:17
Thank you, Trevor, take it away.

Trevor Connor 05:21
Well, so we really want to talk to you about where you think the science of Sports Medicine is going and let’s start by saying, there’s already been huge changes, huge advances in the last 20, 30, 40 years that I’m sure you’ve seen.

Dr. Andy Pruitt 05:36
Well, just before we went on the air, we were talking about, you know, over my 40 years, things that now are commonplace that weren’t there, then that’s like arthroscopy, heart rate monitors, you know MRI, those are all things that didn’t exist when sports medicine was actually born. So who knows what the future holds, I mean if this much change occurs who knows. Well I’m trying to retire, but they won’t let me. So if as much changes in the next 40 years that has occurred in the last 40 years, it’s going to be unbelievable the technology that exists, that will exist, in those days to help athletes become the best they can be, stay healthy, avoid injury or recovering injury faster, it’s just gonna be astronomical. I think our ability to see inside the human body without intrusion without incision is only going to improve right if we think about the MRI right now. If you walk into the the sports medicine, doctor’s office, probably the second thing out of his mouth is going to be we need to get an MR. – Sure. – So there’s an upside to that and that it’s some fabulous technology. For me as an old school caregiver, I think we’ve we’re losing some of our hands on diagnostic skills because of the advancement of technology. If I interview a young sports medicine doc, he really leans heavily on the technology, where guys in my generation leaned heavily on their hands and intuition, and those kinds of things. So what’s the future hold? I think the future holds more and more ability to look inside the human without an intrusion, without an incision. So that’s where, that’s really where it has to go. So that’s both diagnostic and prognostication, right? So what’s, what’s an athlete’s ability? Are we going to have a way to scan the heart to tell its ability to grow and to be more functional? Are we going to be able to measure cardiovascular output predict output in the future? There’s a lot of things going that direction. So if you ask me, I think it’s gonna become less personal, and more technological.

Trevor Connor 07:50
Now, let’s go there for a minute because I remember you once told me that a good doctor is going to be able to do that diagnostics, basically, with their hands with the old school methods. And you said, the MRI is almost more for the patient so that the patient can see what’s going on. Do you think that’s going to change? Do you think the technology is going to get to where whatever device they’re using to scan and look inside your knee or look inside your heart is going to beat the doctor.

Dr. Andy Pruitt 08:17
Probably. It breaks my heart actually, because I think about, so I’m 71. So think about doctors from 50 to my age, they all have really good, they should have good diagnostic skills. And they know when they’re examining a knee, they know whether this has a torn ACL, they know whether it has a torn meniscus, and the MRI is confirmatory. It’s really for the patient and the patient’s family, that younger doc he’s unsure, right? If he’s unsure, so he’s gonna lean on the MRI heavily. Great example is. So a family practice doctor doesn’t have as many examinations of a knee under his belt that say an orthopedist or sports medicine guy does. So he orders the MRI for the young high school athlete, because he doesn’t have a clue, right? And the MRI comes back that he has a torn meniscus and a partially torn ACL. Well, if we were to MRI, most of the kids on the football team, then great number and we’re going to have those very identical findings and no symptoms and no traumatic history. Right. So you have to be able to correlate clinically what the MRI says and I think that if we get better at being able to age an injury in other words, if there’s some way that that torn meniscus can be looked at as an old, oh that’s an old tear, that’s not the problem. That’s not an acute problem or wow, see the bloody edge of that meniscus them and that is that is a fresh tear. So we can order to age, you know, get more refined about our MRI findings and other technological findings, not just MRI. That’s really the key is be able to, I do think in the future technology is going to beat out the the human. Which is sad to me because I’ve always loved the hands on part. You know.

Trevor Connor 10:12
But it’s where it’s going.

Dr. Andy Pruitt 10:14
Back when I started my career on the sidelines, right? So division one football, I was the guy that ran out on the field when the guy got hurt and I always, I followed the ball up inside, up and down the sideline. I always prided myself, really knowing what was wrong with that athlete before he hit the ground. I saw how he got hit, I saw I twisted his knee. There’s so much of that could tell me what was going to be wrong before I got there and I think that’s that’s lost in the technological world.

Trevor Connor 10:42
Fair. So let’s talk about the athletes. Do you think with all these advances, their attitude towards sports medicine is changing and going to continue to change? Or where do you feel they’re at?

Dr. Andy Pruitt 10:56
Interesting question, because in my day, we were coached by old school methods and old school successes, and along comes heart rate monitor, and then along comes max Vo2 test and pretty soon they’re starting to predict things. So this is, you know, for you to be a world class cyclists you need to have a max Vo2 of a minimum of 70. Right? And then we’d find guys that had huge success that were in the 50s and then along comes, you know, Lance in his category that and they’re in the 80s, right and so predictability and reliance on technology is gone from almost disbelief in the old days, to now, if you don’t hire a high end coach, and he’s not testing you, every three or four weeks, metabolically, and once a month, maybe a blood, you feel like you’re gonna get left behind if you’re not participating and all that technology is availed to the athlete these days. So yeah, I do think, to succeed at a high level, they feel like they have to have help.

Trevor Connor 11:59
That’s fair. And then the final question is really about bike fit. Where do you think that’s going?

Dr. Andy Pruitt 12:05
Well, obviously, 40 years of my career have been around how a rider sits on a bicycle and I learned the old school European method early on in the 70s, and quickly as a scientist, as an anatomist, I thought, This doesn’t make any sense these normals, that doesn’t make any sense. So we started to calculate joint angles and those kinds of things. And then along came the opportunity was given to me to be really an early pioneer in the use of 3d motion capture, I was the first one to ever have 3d motion capture as part of a medical bike fit product but there was still a really an important human piece to that 3d motion capture and I, now through companies like retool, their collection of data is so deep, that there’s, I think they’re going to be able to do an automated bike fit from all the directions, front view, side view, top view, although and have some great predictive values and from that data, they will say, this athlete needs more arch support, this athlete needs two millimeters of forefoot barris on the left, one millimeter on the right, you need to check the saddle because of hip rock. I just think that they have so much deep data now that the future could be you’re in your home, and you are filmed. You send it into the company and they send you back, you know, a window of satellites, saddle for app bar reach, all those kinds of things. So I do think that automated non human bike fit is gonna happen to us somewhere in the future.

Chris Case 13:45
Along those lines, you’ve played a role in the development of a lot of products, shoes, bars, all sorts of saddles, all sorts of things that help athletes on bikes, cyclists become healthier, perform better, et cetera. What’s the future look like there? What products are coming? Or what’s the next saddle? I don’t know. What’s the next big thing there?

Dr. Andy Pruitt 14:08
Funny you asked about saddles Chris. – Oh, yeah? – So think about where we sit on a bicycle seat, is a very private area and retail I still think we’re going to struggle with the the retail employee talking to a customer about where exactly is that saddle sore. And I think female anatomy has finally been brought into the forefront and it’s being considered as part of saddle design. So I do believe and I can say this, because I worked on it. – You sort of know. – But I but I don’t, I do but I don’t, because I retired and specialized three years now. So I know when I left. What I was hoping to do was, I was working on a pressure map or mat if you will, that was dome shaped that could be used at a retail setting and now he said on a flat surface and retail and an issue tuberosity high pressure indication that gives us a conversation about which width saddle to go on, that doesn’t tell us anything about shape for you, right? So if we have this dome shaped pressure map that can be used in retail, that the customer sits on with a thin layer of clothing, right, but not a shammy, just a thin layer of clothing, and that impression is hooked to the computer and the computer is hooked to a 3d printer, and it’s going to 3d print a custom saddle and shape

Dr. Andy Pruitt 14:13
While the customer waits… Well… Maybe.

Dr. Andy Pruitt 14:26
You know that may be more than I was hoping. I was thinking 48 hours, but there’s finishing to be done. It’s not just the top of the saddle to be 3d printed, there’s some finishing aspects that would need to be done. So I would say 48 hours later, you know, you pick up your custom made and shaped saddle at retail.

Chris Case 16:04
I would think that custom 3d printing could be the future of a lot of bike cycling products in the future. Yeah?

Dr. Andy Pruitt 16:11
I mean, I think about grips on road bike. I think that handlebars, there’s so many asymmetries in the human body that the current bicycle is so symmetrical, that there’s a lot of things that could be 3d printed, custom. It’s not that it’s not the act of 3d printing. It’s the customization that’s crucial. So I do think there’s lots of parts, though, and the three contact areas that could be custom made and 3d printed. Absolutely.

Chris Case 16:36
Excellent. Well, we could talk endlessly about the future. Andy, thanks so much for for joining us today.

Dr. Andy Pruitt 16:41
You’re very welcome and I’m honored to be here. 200 episodes is quite an accomplishment.

Trevor Connor 16:45
Thank you for joining us for it wouldn’t be the same without you.

Dr. Andy Pruitt 16:49
I appreciate it.

Q&A Segment

Chris Case 16:52
If Fast Talk is about anything, it’s really about the listeners we we aim to please, we aim to serve them. Over the years, their questions have driven a lot of this show, whether it’s the Q&A episodes, obviously, topic ideas that we want to cover, summary episodes, the number of questions we might receive on a given topic often elicits that response, man, we really need to have a summary episode on this topic, because either there’s maybe some confusion, or maybe we just need to really dive into it a bit more. So today, we wanted to have at least a small segment of the 200th episode be about those questions. We reached out to our audience. We had them send in their questions. We got so many. We’re gonna choose a few today. A few good ones today and we’re gonna save a bunch for a subsequent future episode. So let’s dive in.

The Sweet Spot for Polarized Training Models

Chris Case 17:44
Alright, let’s take our first question. It’s from Ernest Boscovich a special Q&A episode wouldn’t be complete without an Ernest Boscovich question. He’s been a longtime listener, a longtime fan, and sends us a ton of great questions. Here’s another from Ernest.

Ernest Boscovich 18:00
Hi, Fast Talk. This is Ernest Boscovich from the Netherlands, I have a question about how to apply polarized training model, would the sweet-spot training be detrimental food mitochondria?

Trevor Connor 18:15
I just got to start by saying I love that we now have a voice for earnest. I’ve received so many questions from him. – Yeah – But I never knew what he sounded like so thank you Ernest for sending us that audio question. So let’s dive into that question which is a question we haven’t gotten about the polarized versus sweet-spot approach before? And it’s a great question and I’m just going to start with the very simple answer of no, doing sweet-spot work is not going to harm mitochondria development, as a matter of fact, is still going to be beneficial. You are still sub threshold when you are doing sweet-spot the energy systems that you are still mostly hitting are your aerobic energy systems. So you are going to get some adaptation, you are going to get some benefits and that you’re going to see in the mitochondrial development. Now if you talk to proponents of the sweet-spot approach, and so for example, go to FasCat Coaching’s website, they have a really good article on this. Their philosophy is this is about cost benefit analysis, which I agree with, and what they say is in that sweet spot range, you see the most adaptation in the most systems doing sweet-spot work, right? So that’s where you’re gonna see the most gains. The other thing they talk about is the importance of that TSS, right and driving your CTL up. Yeah, and again, sweet-spot great for accumulating that TSS, so their approaches, or philosophy as it is best cost benefit, but they’re certainly going to tell you it’s going to benefit the aerobic system, it’s going to benefit that mitochondria development. I fully agree that you’re going to see mitochondria development out of that I just have a different belief. Again, it goes back to the cost benefit analysis and I see it the opposite way, which is hitting that aerobic system sweet-spot versus doing just sub aerobic threshold work so that when people think of a zone 2 work, in a 5 zone model, right, you’re going to see equal adaptation in that aerobic system, but it’s just going to be equal, but you’re going to see greater stress requiring greater recovery. So this is where you start to get into that you’re producing some autonomic stress, that’s going to have an impact on the nervous system, that’s going to require you to take greater rest before you can hit it again. So you might have to take an extra day. So to me, it’s the exact opposite in terms of the cost benefit analysis, you’re gonna see greater cost for basically equal benefits. So why would you want to do that? I have read these questions by Ryan, he couldn’t join us today, he had a third take on this, which was just to address people who are very time crunch, saying look, if you can only trade six hours or less. The one issue with the polarized approach is you can only produce so much stress when you have so few hours, right. And at a certain point, you might not be getting enough of a training adaptation. So his feeling was you might need some of that sweet spot work to produce a greater stress to spark an adaptation.

Chris Case 21:17
Yeah, and I don’t think you’ve ever said this, but I feel like sometimes people get the wrong impression that sweet spot is this evil thing that should be avoided at all costs. That’s not, that’s just not the case. You have a different approach. Some people take a different approach where where it’s sweet spot heavy, and you have a approach where it’s sweet spot light, but you still use it at some point in your training.

Trevor Connor 21:40
I think there are times to use sweet spot I think it can be beneficial. I just think you need to be judicious about it. I think the issue and look, we’ve had this conversation with Frank Overton and he has agreed with this. What we’re kind of against is let’s just take a step back and say, sweet spots, a lot of fun. That’s an intensity that’s not so hard that it really hurts, but it’s hard enough that you feel like you’re getting a workout, you feel like you’re doing something you can throw down with friends a bit on climbs, that sort of thing. It is the most fun time on the bike or running. So there is a bit of that push of every time I’m out there training, let’s go and do sweet-spot work. So you’re never really getting that high intensity. You’re never getting that low intensity and that’s where I think you get yourself in trouble and you stop adapting.

How Do I Drop Body Fat Quick?

Chris Case 22:29
Yeah absolutely. Well, great question from Ernest. Thank you, Ernest. Great answer from Trevor. Thank you. Let’s take our next question. This one comes from Duncan Lally over in Europe.

Duncan Lally 22:38
Morning from the Franco Swiss border near Geneva, where I’m doing a two hour easy cycle. Looking forward to Christmas and thank you so much for the podcast. It’s top quality, it’s just the best there is on cycling. My question is, if I’m 53 years old, male, about six feet high, 83 kilos, I would think about 15, 16% body fat, is it realistic to drop to 77 kilos and a body fat of roughly 10%? How long? And how? Do that miracle for me, would you?

Chris Case 23:21
Big Question, Trevor, we’ve fielded similar questions before this is this is complicated. Dare I say you don’t actually have all the information, you’d really want to have to answer this question, but what would you say?

Trevor Connor 23:34
Yeah, that’s where I started with this question is, there’s a whole lot more information that I would need, I would need to get some body comp information on him. So this is very different if he is low, lean muscle mass, and really what he’s trying to get rid of is a lot of body fat versus a more muscled rider who actually doesn’t have a lot of body fat to get rid of. That’s really going to change how you’re going to approach this and bring up the questions of how much do you actually want to lose? Because if you’re going to have to lose lean body mass, do you want to lose that? And it’s it’s a different challenge, so hard to answer this, but overall, for somebody his height, to get down to 77 kilograms, I would never say, Boy, you’re getting down to dangerous weights for your height. I think it’s doable. It’s just hard to get into those specifics. I did run this one by Ryan, because he does all our nutrition consults. And this is really his area of specialty. He actually wrote a really lengthy answer, which I appreciate, and I’ll summarize some of it and maybe there’s one part I’ll read, but he agreed it’s it’s doable based on the height and the weight that he’s targeting. But I brought up the same question that I would ask as well as how much are you willing to commit? We’re not going to say this is easy, and Ryan finishes his response to saying you have to treat this like training and how dedicated do you want to be to your training? Because it’s not, I’ll just say this flat out, you know, everybody’s always looking for how can I lose 10, 15 pounds and do it easy? The answer is you can’t. There might be all these miracle programs, they’re going to sell you a pill, that you’ll just strip off weight and not even notice no dropping weight is a challenge. It is hard and it takes commitment. There’s no way around that, especially if you’re going to do it the way that Ryan and I both recommend, which is to lose that weight in a healthy manner.

Chris Case 25:31
I think I asked this question of Ryan once and said is really is there? Is it anything more than discipline? And he said, Well, yeah, of course. There’s this new thing we’ve developed. It’s called discipline. – Yes. – Take it away, Trevor. Tell us more.

Trevor Connor 25:48
So you’ll Ryan’s recommendation, Ryan is very big on treat this like training. So he heard these athletes develops nutritional plans. That’s different from the actual training plan, because you need a plan, and the nutrition plan is informed by the training plan. So look at what your targets are, what is your training, and then build the nutrition around that. So what should you be doing on your training days what you’d be doing on your recovery days. Another important thing that he brought up is that question of losing fat mass versus lean mass, and be very careful about not losing that lean mass. So he recommended include strength training, and also making sure that you’re watching your 24 hour protein intake, so that you’re mostly just losing fat mass. The final point that he brought up here actually want to read exactly what he wrote, because I don’t want to misinterpret this or say it differently from him. So he said, I would also suggest getting a good handle on his current intake, and looking at his current energy availability. So, {EA = TDEI – EEE / FF}, EIEIO

Chris Case 27:05
EIEIO Yeah, so what does that all mean?

Trevor Connor 27:08
Or total daily energy intake minus exercise energy expenditure, divided by fat free mass. So he says, since fat free mass is the metabolically active component, we don’t want to risk losing too much power producing tissue at the expense of losing fat mass. Generally, males can exist between 30 to 40 kilograms per calorie, fat free mass per day, and lose weight while maintaining performance greater than 40 to 45 is adequate, going below 30 for short periods of time, may or may not cause performance issues, but I generally do not recommend cutting too much kilocalories, for athletes that are very active. For less active athletes, that may be a strategy we could use. So my take home, establish your baseline habits, put some numbers to them. Write up an annual plan, because 13 pounds from somebody already a healthy weight will take some time, set small goals and no more than three to four weeks at a time, create your nutritional approach, eg how much, what types of fluids, etc, and execute that.

Chris Case 28:15
Very complicated. We could and we have devoted entire episodes to weight, weight loss, weight management, all of these things. We have content on our site where Ryan has walked through this process, food journaling, logging, it’s very complicated. We couldn’t possibly develop a plan for an individual in five minutes, but I think that was a great summary of the complexities of it, honestly.

Trevor Connor 28:41
Thanks for Ryan. I think that was a great response that he sent us.

How do you Maintain the Perfect Tempo and Sweet-Spot Balance?

Chris Case 28:43
Yeah. Great question from Duncan there. Let’s take our final question. This one is from Matt Winstead.

Matt Winstead 28:51
Hey, this is Matt Winstead. During the base season, doing big gear work, low rpms and sub threshold workouts and sweet spot or tempo. I tend to carry soreness in my legs for at least half of a week, and for example, at the end of a training week, by Monday my legs have a lot of soreness and by Wednesday, all of that soreness has not gone after a day of rest and a day of zone one, and typically I would start another hard workout by Wednesday. Is that okay to be attempting interval work during the base phase, like a big gear workout or a sweet spot workout or some type of force intervals with still residual soreness in your legs?

Chris Case 29:48
Another complex question I would think, interesting that he’s feeling sore for such a long period of time in my mind, that stood out. Interesting that I guess it’s repeating itself too. You would think that with, in a Dom’s situation it tends to go away, after you know that initial bout and you’ve worked through that initial soreness. So what would you have to say here to Matt?

Trevor Connor 30:12
Yeah, so that was the first question that both Ryan and I raised on this, which is why is he sore for so long? Cycling has no eccentric motion. So yes, your training can make you a little sore but to be sore for that long, doesn’t seem quite right. Ryan, the first question he raised, does he have the right balance? Is he just doing too much training and not prioritizing his recovery, so his body doesn’t have the ability to rebound. He’s seen it mostly, when he’s doing the big gear intervals, his body’s basically saying, I’m just out of balance here. So I just can’t recover from this. Where I immediately went was actually is there any sort of neuromuscular issues here, just poor neuromuscular recruitment. So when he’s doing that big gears, he’s getting a lot of co-activation, which is causing muscle tearing, and that’s producing some of the soreness. So if what I’m saying has any validity to it, then yes doing some neuromuscular work is really important for him, he should be doing some big gears, should probably also be doing some high cadence work and working on the neuromuscular side. Ryan’s recommendations are he needs to look at his recovery, might need to build in more recovery, and Ryan felt he should be making sure that he’s doing these intervals, these big gear intervals rested, fully recovered. In terms of the continuing when he’s sore, he talked about this being in the base phase, being a little sore in the base phase is fine. In my books, you don’t want to go into a race sore, that’s gonna affect your performance. But the base phase to say, I’m sore, I’m going to go out in the bike, there’s not a big issue with that.

Chris Case 31:57
It seems like it would be a little overkill if you were sore every time you rode, though.

Trevor Connor 32:01
Yeah, every time you ride, not great. Being sore for four days is not great. So that does need to be addressed. So I think the biggest message here is he needs to look into why that is, but otherwise, having some soreness, it’s fine. I would say, you also just want to plan around that, so maybe if the big ears make you pretty sore, wait a few days before you do your next interval session to make sure that most of that soreness is cleared before you do them and as Ryan said, make sure you’re fully fresh going into the big gear work.

Kristen Legan Discusses the Changes in Competitive Cycling

Chris Case 32:33
Great. Thanks, everybody, for submitting those great questions. Again, we got so many that we’re going to save up all the rest and have those in a future episode of Fast Talk. So stay tuned. Well, our next guest is someone who I think represents the future of cycling. That is the theme of this episode as a whole the 200th episode, what is the future? Kristin is someone who started life, let’s say as a triathlete, she then evolved into a cyclocross racer primarily, but now she does ultra distance events, she does mountain bike marathon events, she does a little bit of everything, not just as an athlete, but as a coach. She works with a lot of athletes that run the gamut, and I think that’s why she’s a great guest to help us discuss the future of the sport of cycling. Welcome to Fast Talk. Kristen Legan.

Kristen Legan 33:24
Thanks for having me.

Chris Case 33:25
So let’s just hit you with that big question and see where this conversation goes. What do you think is the future of the sport of cycling? And maybe we should break it down a little bit? There’s a lot of different aspects and niches within the sport of cycling. So World Tour, I think I know where you’re gonna head with this, but let’s start there.

Kristen Legan 33:46
Yeah, I think it’s a it’s pretty huge topic. So starting with World Tour, there’s so much history with the World Tour side of things that I think we’re gonna probably not see giant changes with that right away, or you know, long term because there’s so much history there. So it’s not like we’re gonna see just wild changes to Grand Tours or classics but I do think that there’s opportunity for different types of stages. You know, we’ve seen some gravel stages in there, and so I think we could see some some smaller little additions based on what’s happening in the rest of the world with cycling. So yeah, so maybe, you know we’re always gonna see big equipment changes and physiological changes with all of the testing and all the new research that we’re seeing out there. But I think in terms of actual racing, it’s gonna maybe stay relatively similar to what we’ve been seeing lately.

Chris Case 34:34
Right, but that brings us to maybe the the more exciting question, which is, where are you seeing a lot of change a lot of evolution in the sport, maybe even revolution in the sport?

Kristen Legan 34:45
Yeah, I mean, I think we can all agree the last five to 10 years has seen a huge change in this mixed terrain, gravel kind of world of cycling, especially here in the US, and it’s growing globally as well. So I think that’s where we’re gonna see even more changes happening. I don’t think we’re at that, you know the max point right now. So we’re going to continue to see more changes, and I think a lot of that is going to happen in the races themselves, we’re going to see more and more races pop up on the scene, and I think there’s some really cool race directors out there doing interesting things, trying different types of races, whether it’s mixing up what terrain you’re riding, or surfaces you’re riding, or even just the format, we’re seeing more segment style events happening, and so it’s kind of, I think we’re gonna see a even bigger expansion of that more creativity there, which is great for us as writers, because that just means we’re going to have a lot more opportunities to test ourselves and race against people in different ways and not just the same old thing over and over again.

Chris Case 35:41
Any specific examples you’d like to mention? I guess I would plug the fact that you have been selected, it’s a, 60 riders were selected. It’s a pretty small exclusive group that you got into to do the Lifetime Grand Prix, could you explain what that is?

Kristen Legan 35:57
Yeah, Lifetime Grand Prix is really exciting event, at least for me. It’s six races, it spans endurance, gravel riding, and mountain biking, it brings those two sides together into a series. And so yeah, there was a selection of 60 riders, and it’s going to be a really fun circuit to follow. So you can kind of get to know some of the riders and watch their progress through the season and so I think, that is a great example of how gravel or I guess we can call it just endurance off road riding. I don’t know what you want to call it. It’s pulling riders from so many different directions, you’re having people that have been traditionally road riders coming in and trying their hand at some gravel events. You’re having, you know, enduro and downhill mountain bikers showing up at some of these races, and so it is really bringing a lot of these different communities together, and again, just testing ourselves in in ways that we maybe haven’t done in the past but yeah, I think series are another big example of where gravels going. We saw Belgian Waffle Ride expand quite a bit this year with more, more and more races. So I think it’s fun to talk with people who have been in mountain biking for a long time and talk about the Norba Series and how some of this is actually really similar to that, which is exciting for someone like me, who didn’t maybe get to experience the Norba stuff, but has always heard these amazing experiences and how people really enjoyed that. So getting to kind of experience that in our own way.

Trevor Connor 37:19
Kristen thanks for coming on.

Kristen Legan 37:21
Thank you, congrats on the 200th episode.

Chris Case 37:23
Thank you.

A Brief Message From Ryan Kohler

Ryan Kohler 37:30
Hey, I’m Ryan Kohler, head coach and physiologist at Fast Talk Laboratories.

Trevor Connor 37:34
And I’m Trevor Connor, CEO Fast Talk Labs, between the two of us Ryan and I have over 40 years of coaching and clinical experience. From juniors to masters national level athletes to club riders.

Ryan Kohler 37:45
Our team at Fast Talk Laboratories is pleased to offer new solutions and services. Now you can get the same guidance and testing available to athletes at National Performance centers.

Trevor Connor 37:55
No matter where you live or train, our virtual performance center can be your support network, to get faster, to get answers and to get more enjoyment from your sport.

Ryan Kohler 38:05
Schedule a free consult, we’ll discuss your background and recommend a path forward.

Trevor Connor 38:09
Book a coaching help session, we’ll help you push your thinking and find new opportunities. We can troubleshoot challenges and find solutions. Even if you’re working with the coach, we can help support you and your coach. By bringing a neutral science based perspective to your training.

Ryan Kohler 38:24
Schedule inside testing you can do from anywhere in the world. We can reveal incredible insights into your personal physiology and strengths as an athlete, plus next steps to improve your performance.

Trevor Connor 38:34
Prove your nutrition was a consultation tailored to your needs, or create a personal race day nutrition plan.

Ryan Kohler 38:41
We even help you with workouts and skills we offer in person and virtual sessions to guide key workouts or improve technique. Fast Talk Laboratories is here for you, wherever you are, see how we can help at

Fast Talk All Star Guest Dr. Seiler Discusses His Take on the Changes of Physiology Research

Trevor Connor 39:00
Well, I can’t believe it’s been over 150 episodes since we had this guest first appear on our show. I refer to him as the Jay Z of physiology and I will still stand behind that claim. Dr. Seiler, welcome to the show. You started with us back then, you have been with us ever since and I have to say, and I hope you don’t mind my saying this. You have been a big part of the spirit of this show, and have really represented on the physiology research training side. What we are trying to do and so we could not do this 200th episode without you, and today we hope that we can talk to you a little bit about where endurance sports training and research is going.

Dr. Stephen Seiler 39:46
Well thanks Trevor. I tell you what, you guys introduced me to podcasts, I literally, I don’t think I actually knew what a podcast was when I first received an email from from you and asked me to speak, and then the whole connection to some musician and all this stuff. I was totally confused, but it has been a really good ride and I have learned a lot from you guys, and I hope we’ve had a good experience together. Man, I just love these conversations, so thanks for inviting me.

Chris Case 40:16
Absolutely. Pleasure to have you.

Trevor Connor 40:18
As I said, would not be the 200th episode without having you on here. So thank you for joining us and let’s dive into those questions. So I actually want to start with specifically what you’re doing because you’ve actually kept us a little involved in your research, we’ve reached out to our listeners to participate in some of your studies but you are continuing to do what you’ve always done, which is look at the the science of endurance sports training, from unique perspectives to come up with things that maybe the labs haven’t discovered yet. So could you tell us a little bit about what you’re doing right now?

Dr. Stephen Seiler 40:54
Yeah, well, I can’t say I’ve always done that, because I do have my background in the traditional lab and in more of the Molecular Physiology lab but you’re right, most of my last 20 years has been spent kind of on that frontier between that traditional lab, which is for exercise physiologist, it’s some kind of a work meter, an ergometer, like a bicycle, a treadmill, or whatever and then these tools for measuring physiological responses, like heart rate, and lactate and oxygen consumption, and so forth. So that’s that central lab that we all have grown up with in exercise physiology dating back 100 years. In the end, say 50, 55 years ago, we kind of move into this so called molecular exercise physiology and I would say it was with Halazay who discovered that there was mitochondrial proliferation in rats that ran on treadmills and so suddenly, we started getting some information about what was actually happening inside the body. And that’s gone down this, you know, down into the rabbit hole of cellular signaling, and metabolomics, and so forth, and so that’s a really powerful laboratory, and then this third lab where maybe I’ve been at least partly involved in developing is somewhat technology driven, but also driven by respect for the reality that the coach athlete relationship, and all that happens there with 100s and 1000s of athletes over time represents a kind of laboratory of trial and error around training. So you got these three laboratories that have evolved, and I would say that the two on the ends, the one in the middle is pretty much what it is, and continues to be what it is, but the two on the ends, the very molecular and the very field based, they are both being amplified and empowered by technology, by technological developments and we will see that they, you know we’re going to have to connect all three of these. I think that’s happening, we’re starting to be able to go from, you know, have discussions about training intensity distribution, and actually connecting cellular signaling data to that, and to the why, you know why are the athletes doing this? Why is that maybe better to train more low intensity and what does the signaling data say? So this is where we’re going and I think it’s really exciting, the technology is allowing us to move some of the very traditional measurements that only happen in the laboratory out into the field and that’s some of the work that I’m doing, and when you combine that with social media, with crowd sourced tools then we can really ramp up the number of people that we can ask to help us in the data collection process. I think that’s going to help us to do a better job of understanding, for example the individual responses, the variation in how people respond to the same training prescription.

Trevor Connor 43:53
So getting broader here, it seems like when you talk about that third, that in the field testing, there’s opportunities now and moving forward that we didn’t have 10, 20 years ago. So for example, you asked us to help get participants for one of your studies, but you were putting it out on social media, asking people to participate, and now you can reach out to people and say, send me a year’s worth of your data. I want your heart rate, your power data, all this information that people didn’t use to collect 20 years ago, so 20 years ago to get a study with 15 athletes in it was a pretty good end value. Now you can get 1000s and get data going back for years. So that’s something we’ve never been able to do before.

Dr. Stephen Seiler 44:36
Yeah I mean, it’s even closer to home. You know, one of the studies that is kind of a seminal work for me or that you know, I still build a lot of my current research around was published in 2006. It was with Jr. Cross Country Skiers where where I had a student go up and collect data on over 425, 430 training sessions and that’s where I introduced this basic polarized model is from that data and some other data. This is only 15 years ago, and 400 workouts was a lot just 15 years ago and now I’m sure people in the audience are going 400 workouts, that’s nothing. You know, that’s one athlete for a year, you know so, but that’s how quickly things have changed. Is that study has been referenced, I don’t know 700 and something times, and now we can do crowdsource work where the, the number of workouts, the number, you know, the input is from 1000s of athletes. So, it’s a new ballgame.

Chris Case 45:37
What are the shortcomings of that approach, if any?

Dr. Stephen Seiler 45:40
The shortcomings, of course, are that we lose some of that control, you know, the idea of the laboratory is to control the variables so that you are controlling the various potential confounders you know, whether it’s the calibration of the bicycle, the exactness of the heart rate monitor, what did they eat before they trained, did they drink, have caffeine, all of those things in the laboratory, we try to just tighten everything up and do as good a job as we can. Well, that’s not reality. Reality is that people train every day, and they have, you know, they drink a cup of espresso before they train or they don’t eat this time they ate last time. So you lose control, but you gain a kind of a external validity and you overcome the control issues with numbers, you know, just the power of numbers. So there are two different ways of achieving a similar goal, but I just think that the traditional laboratory is not going to disappear. But we’re going to see more and more symbiosis in kind of moving back and forth. Observation, hypothesis generation testing new hypotheses, and we’re going to get this virtuous cycle, I hope, and I think it’s already happening. Then of course, the signaling people are, that’s another breed or another group, and they’re in the game, you know, they’re involved, and they’re helping to make sense of all this.

How Will Endurance Sport Training Change?

Trevor Connor 47:08
So the big question I have for you is, where do you think this is all going? What is the future of an endurance sports trainer? At least, what are we gonna be able to do? What do you think we’re gonna discover that we haven’t been able to do yet?

Dr. Stephen Seiler 47:22
Right? And that’s, of course, the $64,000 question. I don’t think coaching, good coaching is going to disappear to just to put that out there up front is that I still believe that, at least for my lifetime, you know, assuming I live a few years more, that the coach with the good eyes and the ability to see a gestalt of what’s happening with their athletes and to communicate that’s still important. We will have more information and our heads up display of information about what’s happening to the athlete, how they’re responding. The relationship between internal and external workload, things like this will really inform the decision making process and hopefully give a bigger percentage of our athletes a good individualized experience with their training, you know, the guard rails, I think we’ve done a pretty good job of trying to understand some of the basics, the fundamentals of the training process, but within that, those guardrails. Now we’re trying to help individualize the process and whether that’s through big data, whether artificial intelligence will play a role in other branches, medicine and so forth. What we’re seeing is that artificial intelligence, AI is not taking over but it is augmenting, are the places where it’s helping, like for example, in analyzing photographic data or you know, mammograms and so forth, and cancer testing, cancer screening, it’s AI plus specialist, it’s not either or. I think that’s the model that we’ll see also emerging in the coaching space, it’ll be coach plus some AI some big data in so it will help the coach to focus on things that are fuzzy in the AI, perhaps will take some of the workload if that makes sense. That’s what I see moving forward, AI or you know, the culminations of different kinds of data, but it still comes down to creating a good heads up display that allows athletes and coaches to keep looking forward, keep their eye on the ball, but have information data that informs their process from day to day.

Trevor Connor 49:44
So doctor Seiler one final question here and I’m going to put you a little bit on the spot. You have had a huge impact on exercise physiology and on training, but I know you’re not the type of person to rest on his laurels. You want to keep having an impact. So If the exercise physiology gods came down and said to you, you can have one more, only one impact but you can pick what it is. What would you answer?

Dr. Stephen Seiler 50:12
Oh wow, that sounds terminal.

Chris Case 50:18
Here you are moments ago saying if I live, assuming I live, and now Trevor is putting you on the spot here.

Dr. Stephen Seiler 50:24
He just gave me a really bad diagnosis, but given that and and those things happen right now, I think the nearest the thing that I would like to contribute would be then understanding breathing ventilation and how ventilation plays in because it’s one of the two vital signs that are that are fundamental. You know, I’ve said it recently you go into your unconscious and get wheeled into an emergency room, what do they look at? They say, is this person breathing? And is their heart beating? And then they go take it from there. And so those two will heart rate, you know, we’ve we’ve squeezed that turned out pretty darn well, you know, I would say. So I don’t see a whole lot of revolution, maybe a little bit of evolution on the heart using heart data. But ventilation, man, there’s so much information within breathing, that tells us things and I think we’re going to be able to move that out into the field. And the scope of inhalation is bigger in terms of the change and so anyway, I’m really excited about it and I’m trying that would be where I would want to try to make a last contribution. If Trevor’s gonna, you know, send me off.

Chris Case 51:39
He has the power to do that.

Trevor Connor 51:41
Well yeah, that brings up the other bit of bad news for you, but we’ll save that for later.

Dr. Stephen Seiler 51:46
Okay. There’s a tornado coming. – All right. Well, thank you. – Thanks for giving me a big downer Trevor. I was so happy, here it is Friday and you know, I was gonna have a beer after but I might need to have a whiskey.

Chris Case 52:03
Have three. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Trevor Connor 52:06
Let’s look at the positive effects. You get another big impact.

Dr. Stephen Seiler 52:11
But I’d only have to see it.

Dr. Stephen Seiler 52:12
It’s a trade off, there’s always a tradeoff.

Dr. Stephen Seiler 52:17
So thanks a lot. I get, he’s getting me back for telling Canadian jokes.

Chris Case 52:21
Yeah, I know. I’m waiting for him to do the same to me. So…

Trevor Connor 52:25
Well that’s, so yeah if I was only gonna have one last impact on the show. It’d be to get Chris to say, I like Canadians. If I got that I’d be happy I’m done.

Chris Case 52:39
Hey it’s the 200th episode, anything could happen Trevor. You might not even have to ask that nicely or apologize afterwards.

Dr. Stephen Seiler 52:45
Trevor, we only make fun of you because we do like Canadians, and that’s from the heart man, I like Canadians.

Chris Case 52:54
Thank you for saying that. Dr. Seiler.

Dr. Stephen Seiler 52:57
Even though he’s trying to kill me off, I still like Canadian.

Chris Case 53:00
Yeah, so you’re proving that you’re actually a nicer human than the Canadian because he’s the one trying to kill you. Alright…

Dr. Stephen Seiler 53:10
It’s better to be good, then to look good.

Chris Case 53:15
Always a pleasure. Dr. Seiler, thank you for joining us on this 200th episode, we couldn’t have a 200th episode without you.

Dr. Stephen Seiler 53:22
Well thank you guys and 200 more, you know, just keep it rolling.

Chris Case 53:26
We will.

Trevor Connor 53:27
And thank you for all you’ve done for the show. It would not be the same without you.

Rob Pickels Discusses the Changes in Virtual Racing

Trevor Connor 53:32
Alright, so for our fourth and final guests. On this episode, I would like to welcome also the newest member of Fast Talk Labs, Rob Pickels. Rob, welcome.

Rob Pickels 53:43
Well guys. Proud to be here. Proud to be with you. Looking forward to it. It’s gonna be a good time.

Trevor Connor 53:47
We love having you on the team. We did two nerd lab episodes with you where you went through a bunch of studies with me and geeked out.

Rob Pickels 53:54
Yeah, that was a quick interview. Huh?

Trevor Connor 53:56
Yeah oh well, I knew right, then.

Rob Pickels 53:57
Boom, done. Close the book.

Trevor Connor 53:59
Gotta have you on the show. So welcome, we are going to talk now about the future of some of those things that don’t really have a pass. So new things, things like some of these wearables have just come out things like, even though it’s not quite new anymore, we’ll still think of it as new all this virtual riding and virtual racing. So, Chris, where do we want to start?

Chris Case 54:22
Gosh, I think the most interesting thing to me is to talk about where technology is taking some of the gadgets in the data collection devices. Where’s that headed? I know you have a little bit of experience here. So that’s why I want to hit you with that first.

Rob Pickels 54:39
Yeah, definitely. It’s hard to say is this coming from the consumer or is it coming from the companies, but I think that we’re seeing a rise in the connected athlete, the quantified athlete, where whatever you can possibly get data on, people are recording on themselves and that wearable technology is really increasing at this point in time. So I think that we’re gonna continue to see that rise, I think that people are looking for ways to get some guidance. Right, as we see new people enter into the sport, as sports grow, people don’t want to feel lost, right? Especially in this day and age, you have Google Maps with you, you know, any information that you need you have at your fingertips, and athletes are looking for that as well. You know, we saw today when we were testing, just the integration of technology with the athletes that we were testing this morning, how many of them had music, had headphones, had Netflix and things like that playing, right, and that attitude also plays into their use of technology. So it’s not just heart-rate monitors anymore, right? The old standby, the old classic that we all use is not just power meters anymore. Again, another classic standby, but all of these other things that we’re able to measure, people are really looking for that.

Trevor Connor 55:49
So that does raise though a challenge or potential danger here where we are, it feels like we’re getting into this. If we can measure it will provide a device and there’s this belief that anything we can measure, you should have that, that’s the new thing, that’s going to help your performance. My guess is is going to be hard for people to start differentiating what are really valuable metrics versus something that they just got some money out of my wallet for.

Rob Pickels 56:14
Yeah, Trevor I’m sure that you know, you’re a researcher, you faced this problem before, right? What are the variables that we measure? A lot of people would just choose to measure everything you absolutely could when you’re running a study, but we know that that’s not the best way to go about that, because it really muddys the water muddys the data that you’re getting, and so to be able to be focused is extremely important. Now, I think you’re entirely right, you have one wearable on your arm telling you, you know, this feedback, another one on your finger, another one on your leg, right and they’re all working in this very myopic situation and they’re all trying to give you feedback on exactly the one thing that they’re measuring. How do you integrate all of that? Because they’re certainly not integrating across the different devices, right and so you as an individual makes it really difficult. I think the coaches are really important in this situation but at the same time, I also think is you’re suggesting to only be collecting data on what’s important, what’s a limitation to the performance that you’re trying to achieve? That could be different for different sports, it could be different for different people.

Chris Case 57:14
Seems like that is an opportunity for something in the future to help people integrate or sift through all of this data and maybe I don’t know what that is, but that could be an not a necessity, but something that people are looking for, once they’re overloaded with all this other data.

Rob Pickels 57:31
Yeah, I think that if you if you talk about the near term, it’s an individual, it’s a person, it’s a coach, to tell you the truth, right? I mean, because this is information and information can be research studies, information can be listening to us information can also be reading the output of these different devices. You know if we really want to talk about the future, I know that there’s work being done right now in artificial intelligence, you know, and maybe AI is a system that’s able to integrate all of this information for the individual athlete and I think that has a lot more value in it than just a simple algorithm that is currently in that wearable device, that’s not able to truly take the person into account or truly take all of this data into account, but for it to be an automatic machine driven thing, we need this machine learning, we need this artificial intelligence for it to truly be actionable and worthwhile information.

Trevor Connor 58:25
So here’s the question I have for both of you and Chris, I know your answer is going to be none of it. – Okay. – Of these new wearables of this new data that we’re collecting, some of these new things have come out, which are the ones that you feel, yeah these are here to stay, there’s something to that?

Rob Pickels 58:43
That’s a good question. For me, in all honesty, I think more and I hate to say this, I think more about the company and the number of consumers that they have, then I do the information because in my mind, Trevor and this is what I hate to say, I am separating what’s here to stay with what’s effective because those are two very different things. A product that lives in the marketplace doesn’t necessarily have to be good. People have to think that it’s good. It needs to have marketing behind it, it needs to have consumers behind it and everything else. That’s a very difficult thing is for people to distill that. So for me, you know, and I’m not, I’m going to say a company here and I’m not commenting on their product. But if you look at what Whoop is doing right now, they’re doing a totally different than any other company that’s ever made a wearable before. They’re acting like a tech company, right? If you look at their funding, if you look at their business model, if you look at the steps that they’ve taken, how they’ve rolled out their product, that’s very different than what Polar, Garmin, Wahoo, all of these other companies in this space are doing. I think that they have a likelihood to reach this new consumer, right, who’s used to these tech sort of launches this more of a Silicon Valley sort of approach to things I think they could be successful, but especially because of their company and how they’re modeling and and how they’re working. Now I use a Whoop, my wife has a Whoop, you know don’t make the the assessment, the judgment that I’m tying those two sort of things together, you know, but I will say that I use that product in an exploratory sense at this point in time, you know, I’m not willing to put any of my decisions into one device. For us at this point. It’s a data point that goes along with all of the other data points that I’m able to integrate.

Trevor Connor 1:00:29
I do think it was interesting, you went down that direction, though, because I do think we have most of the metrics that I think you need out on the road to be able to do effective training. So I think, a lot of the metrics that you’re gonna start seeing, a lot of the data you’re gonna start seeing as the rest of the time, which is what something like Whoop really focuses on, so it’s the looking at your HRV, looking at your sleep, looking at the the whole day, as opposed to just the time that you’re training.

Rob Pickels 1:00:56
Yeah, I don’t. I don’t know, if we know what we don’t know until we know that we don’t know it. – That’s fair – Right? Because why do you use power or heart rate to get a sense of the metabolic system? You know, that’s providing the majority of the power for whatever workload you’re doing? What if we could measure that more directly? You know, the wearable, you know, there’s like a wearable lactate sensing patch that assesses lactate in your sweat at this point in time. You know, personally, I haven’t dived deep enough to know exactly the accuracy or efficacy of using that, but what if you went more direct to the source, instead of using a secondary or tertiary measure down the line, the other side of this shoe is you know, and Chris, I think this is very relevant to you. wearable EKG base-layers are going to be a thing, right now. You know, and a lot of that is coming out of the soft-goods technology right, the world that I just left in flexible, stretchable inks that are being developed that can transmit electrical signals. Now you can integrate these EKG sensors directly into a base layer that says form fitting is any other garment that you have, you can wirelessly beam an accurate EKG signal, does that open up new grounds for people training? You know, as opposed to putting their fingers on an Apple watch or wearing a Holter monitor? Or frankly just hoping, you know, to tell you the truth. So I do think that there are horizons that are going to change how we’re viewing training moving forward.

Trevor Connor 1:02:27
That’s fair and I certainly remember Dr. San Millán once saying that if they ever came out with a real time lactate measurement, when you’re training that would trump everything,

Rob Pickels 1:02:36
Just an indwelling catheter? I mean, why not?

Trevor Connor 1:02:40
Sure. Let’s go with it.

Chris Case 1:02:41
I feel like what you’re getting at too, in some ways could be summarized as things that take what the technology that we have right now and make it less intrusive, more comfortable, more convenient, in some ways, but hopefully, also advanced the accuracy and get a more direct measurement of some of these data points.

Rob Pickels 1:03:02
Yeah, comfort and convenience are always king. Right? Any product that’s made that that can hit those two things is great. You know, as you’re saying the accuracy side of things, how do we get more closely to the direct thing that we want to measure, so that we’re not measuring something downstream? Right, and downstream measurements can be great, if you understand the caveat to them, but no I think that you’re 100%. That’s a great summary.

Chris Case 1:03:25
Rob, thanks for joining us.

Chris Case 1:03:28
We want to thank our guests, Dr. Seiler, Dr. Pruitt, Kristen League and Rob Pickels. We want to thank you, our listeners and now viewers, for being a part of Fast Talk the show. We couldn’t have done it without you, and now we want to get into our not 62nd take home and well it is a 62nd take home if you run over we’re not going to complain this time because it’s a special episode. This is the 200th episode. Trevor, the question I want to pose to you. What is the take home message from all 200 episodes? Not just this one? Big question.

Trevor Connor 1:04:10
My one minute summary of what I think this show is all about. Look at the forest for the trees. That is my biggest message. I am personally all about principles, principles of exercise physiology, the principles of training, those need to inform everything you do and it’s really important to understand those principles, then you get down to the details. The concern I always have in training is when you get caught up in the details and forget about the principles so that can get you off track. So we’ve sometimes had people comment, well you’re against FTP, you’re against CTL, you’re against all these metrics and numbers. No, not at all. I think they’re great, but if you focus just on those, that is the details and they can take you off track because you don’t know how and why you’re using them. Just trying to drive CTL up on its own right that can get you off track. What it should be is know the principles, know the big picture, know the forest, and then use the details to inform that how to CTL help those principles. How does FTB help those principles? Then they’re really valuable. So the details, help the principles, but always focus on the principles. – Very good. – Chris, what’s yours?

Chris Case 1:05:32
Well, you know, I don’t think it’s significantly different from yours, although it might on the surface of things seem that way. Everything we do here, it can be complex, it can be very scientific. We’ve talked about complex principles and things, but obviously, in my mind, everything is meant to improve your enjoyment of the sport, is supposed to be fun. If you’re performance driven, that means performance leads to fun, leads to enjoyment. If you’re science driven, that means understanding the science more leads to more enjoyment or fun. So I hope that people listen to us not only to learn, but because they enjoy it. They get something out of it that’s fun, that improves their cycling that improves whatever endurance sport they they partake innd yeah, that just leads to more and more enjoyment and that they can pass on to friends and others. Thank you.


Trevor Connor 1:06:26
Well that was episode 200. Thanks for joining us, but this isn’t it. We’re really excited about the episodes we’re going to bring you this year and hopefully in a couple years we’re going to be back here for episode 400.

Chris Case 1:06:39
Wow, that’s a big number.

Trevor Connor 1:06:41
That is a really big number. Chris you want to sign us out?

Chris Case 1:06:44
I would, I honestly I’ve done the outro 100 times. No, I’ve done it 200 times actually before, I cannot memorize it. Do you have it on there, on your computer there?

Trevor Connor 1:06:55
How could you have done it that many times and still not know it.

Chris Case 1:06:57
It’s one of those things. That was another episode of Fast Talk, subscribe to Fast Talk wherever you prefer to find your favorite podcast and be sure to leave us a rating and a review. The thoughts and opinions expressed on Fast Talk are those of the individual. You’re a terrible thrower. As always, we love your feedback. Join the conversation at to discuss each and every episode and become a member of Fast Talk Laboratories at and become a part of our education and coaching community. For Dr. Steven Siler, Dr. Andy Pruitt, Kristen Legan and Rob Pickels and Trevor Connor. I’m Chris Case. Thanks for listening.