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Sports psychologist Dr. Kate Bennett joins us to discuss the “Way of Champions” psychological framework that leads to happier, healthier, better-performing athletes and people.
Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Chris Case: Hello and welcome to Fast Talk your source for the science of endurance performance. I’m your host, Chris Case here with Grant Hokey and sports psychologist Kate Bennett. Big question, how do you create a champion? Well, that’s a bit of a trick question, and today we take a step back ’cause the word champion can have various meanings.
And on this episode, we discuss the very nature of what it means to be a champion. Then look at the ways in which a champion mindset can flourish given the proper conditions and connections. Dr. Bennett is a sports psychologist and mental health professional who has recently aligned herself with the way of champion’s methodology, which is a proactive approach to empowering athletes, coaches, and teams to optimize their full potential, and to her and the founder of the Method, Jerry Lynch.
That is the true definition of a champion. As she says in the episode, being a champion isn’t necessarily an outcome. Being a champion is who you are every single day. It’s being resilient, it’s being tenacious, it’s being fearless, it’s being courageous. Being a servant leader. So today you’ll learn why being a champion means striving for performance and health simultaneously, and how that can be done.
It’s about finding joy and having gratitude. Knowing these things will lead to a greater sense of accomplishment, and it’s about striving for flow and presence. So that risk and the fear of failure do not prevent you from grasping for opportunity and connection that and so much more today. So. Get ready to flow down the river like water.
That’s a Dallas reference. That will soon make a lot more sense. Let’s make you fast. Kate, welcome back to Fast Talk.
[00:01:45] Kate Bennett: Thank you so much for having me back, Chris.
[00:01:47] Chris Case: You’re welcome. And Grant, thanks for joining us. Absolutely. We’re talking sports psych, so you had to be here. I had
[00:01:53] Grant Holicky: to be here. They dragged me along for these episodes.
I’m all for it.
[00:01:55] Chris Case: Yes, absolutely. Kate, you reached out to me not too long ago via email and had associated yourself, if you will, with this methodology that we’re gonna start talking about called The Way of Champions. I want you to set the stage for us by explaining. What that is, why that’s meaningful to you personally and how your background integrates with that way.
[00:02:19] Kate Bennett: Absolutely. So I launched a second business within the past year, which is kind of my new baby, but it is aligned with way of champions and the way of Champions is a culture building company, and it really focuses on how do we optimize human potential through relationships, leading with love, building relationships, learning how to elevate one another around us.
I came into Wave Champions actually quite organically. Uh, the leader of Wave Champions. Jerry Lynch, a friend and mentor of mine, has been a sports psychologist since 1975, longer than I’ve been alive, and he is a dear friend who our relationship actually started quite organically. I read his very first book, thinking Body Dancing Mine way back when I was in grad school, sports Psychology 2003.
And then come up to 2015, he actually reached out to me, invited me to his conference and just said, Hey, would you like to join? I think he maybe just googled sports psychologists in the area. Mm-hmm. I was one of the few that had a website at the time.
[00:03:16] Grant Holicky: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:17] Kate Bennett: And over the course of the past decade, our relationship has grown and while his work has really focused on supporting coaches and supporting teams, and my work has really been traditional sports psychology and mental health work, there was a very natural crossover where I was seen.
That his work and my work really started to fill a gap and bridge the gap between performance and mental health, and really started to focus on how do we elevate the entire human, which has always been my passion, and it’s been the root underneath every decision I’ve made within my career of how do I help humans be better humans and optimize or performance, and so.
Way of champions became a very natural next step for me. I don’t know that I chose it as much as it, it chose me. Mm. But the evolution was right in front of me and I felt very compelled to. Lean all in. So I’m a licensed wave champions coach and I have started this business to start to focus on how do we bring this culture and this transformation to some of the sports that we don’t necessarily get as much support around.
So I’m thinking endurance sports, a lot of the Olympic sports that don’t necessarily get all the funding that we’ll see at the NCAA or in the major leagues like NHL or NBA. And so a part of my passion is starting to elevate. The other sports who have the same exact needs and deserve the same exact resources.
[00:04:36] Chris Case: I’d like to take a step back in a way and define what way of the champion actually is. I am unfamiliar with it or was unfamiliar with it before you brought it to me, but it sounds like it’s been around and the sports psychologist who found it has been around for a very long time. So could you explain, are there main tenets that are expressed?
[00:04:56] Kate Bennett: So, way of champions is quite a bit different than traditional sports psychology. And the fact that it is based on Eastern philosophy, native American mysticism, it studies culture a lot. So LA Familia of the Mexican culture. It really looks deep into some of the tenets of. What we would consider more outdated cultural practices is built upon the art of war by sun.
Zu do Ching by lazu, and it really focuses on one. Uh, actually one of the principle tenets is the circle and the circle being symbolic for unity and equality, but also openness of heart in mind. And it focuses more on how do we. Tap into the human soul. I think so often when we think about traditional mental performance coaching and psychology, we really focus on what to do with the head.
Mm-hmm. And way the champions really dives more into the soul of the human and how do we create meaning and purpose and really lean into allowing leaning and purpose to create safety, to take risks and to do big things. And so. Principle tenets, I think would be one kind of the focus on that Eastern philosophy and the Native American mysticism and spirituality, not being religious practices, but more about the soul and the human spirit, and how do we.
Cultivate that and elevate it in a way that entire systems can organize around it and elevate each other. The circle is, uh, a really important symbol within the work that we do. If we were a team, we would be standing in a circle, and I would share about the power of the circle where it has no end, no beginning.
It has openness inside. Nobody stands in front of you. Nobody stands behind you, and so it really starts to talk about unity. Another piece is really focusing on how do we build relationships and how do we help people to feel like they have an important role, regardless of if they’re the water guy or the GC rider, like everybody mm-hmm.
On the team has an important role, so really defining roles and then values being a very values driven system.
[00:06:52] Chris Case: I don’t want to say anything upsetting right at the start here, right outta the gate, but I imagine this for certain people is a hard sell.
[00:07:02] Kate Bennett: Oh, 120%. I actually, at my licensing program last year, I raised my hand and I said, how do I as a woman.
Talk to men and be like, you should lead with love.
[00:07:14] Pat Warner: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:14] Kate Bennett: And it was dead silence. And everyone’s like, we’ll have a man introduce you. And I was like, that does not solve my problem. That kind of defeats the purpose, doesn’t it? Um, so it is a hard sell, but I would say, Chris, if you look at some of the recent history with regards to success in sport, if we look at NCAA women’s basketball, Corey close.
She was mentored by John Wooden.
[00:07:35] Andie Schwartz: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:36] Kate Bennett: His philosophy is very similar to way of champions. If we look at Kurt TTI of the IU football program, right, like he organized his system around purpose and meaning. If we look at Florida, who won the Stanley Cup last year, they talk a lot about family and how every guy feels comfortable being his own self.
He doesn’t have to pretend to be somebody else, and so. While it is, I feel like a very vulnerable topic when you look at who’s winning championships, they’re all doing it.
[00:08:04] Grant Holicky: Yeah. And I think mental performance is a tough sell in and of itself.
[00:08:07] Chris Case: That’s true.
[00:08:08] Grant Holicky: Right. And we’ve gotten to a point now where. As you mentioned earlier, Kate, the big boy sports, all have metal performance now tied into ’em, and it’s irreplaceable.
Every time a job post comes up that we see from post-grad work or whatever, it’s a NCAA program or a top four, top five sports program, and. Absolutely right. Endurance sports gets left behind. So in that endurance sports world, I think sometimes it’s a hard sell because it’s not normalized yet.
[00:08:36] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:37] Grant Holicky: And I mean, certainly cycling, this is true.
We’ve hit constantly. I am actively getting a hard time with the Cyclo Cross program that I’m too soft on them or there’s too much. Fun going on. There needs to be more serious and, and expectations can exist in the same world as holistic, love driven, care driven approach.
[00:09:01] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:01] Grant Holicky: But it is a hard sell without a doubt.
And I think. I don’t know. Just gotta keep plugging away at it and keep showing the success of it.
[00:09:09] Chris Case: Point. Yeah, that’s what I was going to say is regardless of how much pushback there might be, if it gets results, then people come around. I would think so briefly, can you give some examples from your own?
World of how this has changed lives, changed performances?
[00:09:27] Kate Bennett: Yeah. I can speak both to individual athlete performance as well as team performance. I was working with a 15 oh male hockey team this winter and as I just mentioned, right, being a woman coming into talk to guys about love feels very vulnerable to me.
But I went in and I had built trust with these kids for four months. I’d been skating on the ice with them, I’d been lifting with them, I was with them. And so I had really earned their trust at that point. And we had a conversation about love and what is love and, and really hard work is love, right? So we started to discuss like what does hard work look like and how do we show love to our teammates?
And then they went four and oh, at their next tournament. Next talk. I come in and we talk about gratitude and what is gratitude and how do we share gratitude with our team. They went eight and oh with three shutouts. Mm-hmm. Like I didn’t make that up, and I don’t think it was coincidental, you know? And then I can speak to, I work with a lot of professional endurance athletes just within my practice for all sorts of reasons.
But when I start to talk about how do we start to view our competitors as our allies and people who are here to help us and to elevate us versus our adversaries who are gonna take from us, we start to show up with less fear. And when we’re not fearful and when we’re not timid, then we start to figure out what we can actually do with our potential.
And we open our hearts for opportunity, and that’s where we start to see the results. And so. One of the very first things at a way of Champion’s Workshop would be if you all were participants, here are six different little Post-it notes. Write down all the qualities of your favorite coach or mentor, and then you have two walls.
This is the X’s and O’s. They taught me how to do this certain technique, or they help me win this certain race, versus they cared about me. They took my call when my mom died. This wall will have a third of what this wall will have. Right. And so when we think about it, it’s what we all crave is connection and caring, especially in this world and how digitized we are.
It does feel vulnerable. But back to your point, I think there are many opportunities where I can do it individually with an athlete where just sitting with them and helping them to realize that they can believe in themself and to learn to love themself in a world full of you’re not good enough is a pretty powerful message.
[00:11:43] Chris Case: Now let’s hear from Andy Schwartz, a coach and registered dietician on how trust between all the people that an athlete works with, their dietician, their coach, other people they might work with, how those relationships improve performance.
[00:11:58] Andie Schwartz: Performance is not just about your body, it’s about how your body and mind are connecting.
And if we have trust in our care team, within our providers and within that learning to have more confidence and trust within ourselves, we know that so much more potential. Is available to us. So our body has physical limits, obviously. You know, the heart rate can only go so high. Our VO two max can only go so high.
But when we believe in our potential and we have that joy, that level of happiness ties into motivation. Obviously, if we’re more joyful and more happy, we probably would push our bodies more and be able to do more beyond what the physical capacity might be holding us back. So I think this is such an important.
Area to emphasize. It’s not just about the workouts, giving them times and sets and training plans, but it’s really connecting the importance of connecting with that athlete and showing them that they can trust building rapport with you, and then ultimately. Transferring that to the athlete themselves so that they learn to trust themselves and build that own inner confidence to reach their full potential is to me, honestly, where I think sports performance really should be going, and I think is moving more in that right direction.
[00:13:16] Chris Case: When I did a little digging on the way of the Champion website, it also spoke to this belief that letting go of an obsession to win is key here, and it sounds like. When you’re going in and talking to a bunch of 15-year-old boys about playing hockey, you’re not talking about winning at all. You’re talking about very, very different concepts.
So is that innate in the conversations you’re having, or do you also express this need to give up the obsession to win in a more direct way?
[00:13:49] Kate Bennett: What I typically say is instead of focusing on outcomes and results, and this could be a hockey team, it could be a cyclist, it could be a triathlete, any athlete.
Instead of focusing on the results, let’s focus on the things you do have control over.
[00:14:02] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:03] Kate Bennett: And as we optimize the things you do have control over. Whether that’s my attitude or my effort or my technique or my strategy or my connection with my team or going into the corner with the big guy. Mm-hmm.
And letting him lay me out so my teammate can get control of the puck. When we start to focus on the things we have control over, the results follow very organically and they actually, to your point, they look at me like I’m crazy. Like, what do you mean? It doesn’t matter if we win. I actually had this conversation with an athlete today about like, there’s no such thing as a bad performance.
And she’s like, what do you mean? There isn’t, right? Let’s talk about, mm-hmm. There’s disappointing performances and there’s upsetting performances, but when we get stuck on results and we start to judge things as good and bad, we lose out on opportunity for growth and progress. And so when I start to help them see that I can focus on my controllables and I can start to influence my team by optimizing my controllables.
The results organically follow, and so they start to trust the process.
[00:14:57] Grant Holicky: I think that’s a really good point, and one of the things that is missed, I think in mental performance or sports psychology is that one of the first things we’ll teach people is the nerves never go away. The anxiety never goes away.
The stress never goes away. You can’t force those things out of the picture, but what you do is you can fill in with things you can control. You can fill in with your plan, you can fill in with that, and those other pieces get pushed to the periphery so that some of this idea with the obsession of winning, when we come in and we talk about gratitude or you talk about love or you talk about being there for each other, those fill in that space and that obsession, the win, while it’s still what ultimately drives people to wake up in the morning and practice, it’s still what drives people to get there and be there for their teammates.
It doesn’t become the only thing.
[00:15:44] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:45] Grant Holicky: And you’ve mentioned this, and it’s in the outline a couple times, that risk to fail risk for athletes is everything. And they don’t, athletes don’t like to risk. Because of what might be lost. And when you can start filling in these things of like, you know what, if I screw up, this person’s got my back.
We talk about it a lot this year on the world’s trip with Cyclo Cross. If you get passed by a teammate or a teammate comes and passes, you pat ’em on the back and say, let’s go together. You will have no idea how that will lift the both of you. And if that person speeds up, great. You’re still gonna feel like you can beat ’em.
You just passed them. So let’s go. It’s just gonna lift the game. So it’s creating space for these other pieces, pushes those other elements that we’re trying to get to the periphery, back to the periphery instead of becoming the singular focus.
[00:16:35] Chris Case: Mm.
[00:16:36] Grant Holicky: And that’s a very Buddhist Taoist mindset anyway, right?
Like, where do we create this feeling and this passion? And let everything else just go the way it’ll go.
[00:16:46] Chris Case: Mm-hmm. Not to sidetrack us, I just have a side note. Something that I’ve heard Vanderpool say many times is I had to risk it all in order to win it all. Like you have to put, sometimes you have to put yourself in a very vulnerable place on a course or make a move that.
Could turn out to be embarrassing.
[00:17:12] Grant Holicky: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:13] Chris Case: But. With his skillset. Of course.
[00:17:16] Grant Holicky: Yeah. It helps, right?
[00:17:17] Chris Case: It helps, but sometimes you have to risk it all in order to win it all.
[00:17:21] Grant Holicky: Well, really interesting comment out of VanderPol a few years back when somebody asked him about an Amil gold that mm-hmm. Iconic race where he rode off.
Yeah. Like just rode everybody back. Caught the front and sprinted for the win.
[00:17:32] Chris Case: Yeah. He
[00:17:32] Grant Holicky: said I couldn’t do it anymore.
[00:17:34] Pat Warner: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:34] Grant Holicky: And I think everybody reacted and said, oh, physically, maybe he couldn’t do it. He is not as young as he was. I don’t know if that’s what he meant. Mm-hmm. I think some of it is just like.
When you’re young and you’re dumb, and you just say, I’m gonna go to the front and I’ll pull everybody back, and who cares if I pull eight guys back? That’s my only shot to win. One of my biggest pet peeves in cycling is it’s so negative. Right. I’m not gonna pull back those lead two because then these other three might have a chance to win.
Well, if you don’t pull them back, you don’t have a chance to win either. So what’s the point?
[00:18:04] Pat Warner: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:05] Grant Holicky: And we saw it this year, was it E three where VanderPol was dying? Like a stuck pig out in front and those guys just all sat up and let ’em win?
[00:18:12] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:13] Grant Holicky: Because they got within three seconds and Verish was mad that nobody else was pulling.
Well now you didn’t get to win
[00:18:19] Chris Case: either. Well, some of those histrionics sometimes are a cover for, oh God, I’m not gonna get there. Right.
[00:18:24] Grant Holicky: Yeah, yeah, you’re that’s fair.
[00:18:25] Chris Case: Yeah.
[00:18:26] Grant Holicky: I think I did those on Tuesday and the stage. Right. I feel
[00:18:30] Chris Case: you just start throwing your hands up, throwing hands. The red do
[00:18:33] Grant Holicky: the
[00:18:33] Chris Case: remco,
[00:18:34] Grant Holicky: come on.
Yeah. No, and nobody was pulling through. It was their fault, not mine,
[00:18:39] Kate Bennett: but going off risk. Right. To your point, grant, is that. So often, you know, with any risk, there’s opportunity cost, right? And anytime we make a decision, if I’m saying yes to one thing, I’m saying no to something else. Or if I say no to something, I say yes to something else.
And risk. When I say no to risk, then I’m also saying no to opportunity. Absolutely. And so that is very much part of this way of champions is that we have this thing called psychological safety where we encourage you to take risks and in fact, we reward you by. Giving you praise or celebrating the risk or coming back and patting you on the back if you fail.
And knowing that we still care about you and you’re still important and you’re still valued within the system. And so to truly optimize potential risk has to be a part of the equation. And I agree a hundred percent. So often we’re focused on, well, what am I gonna lose?
[00:19:26] Chris Case: Yep. Mm-hmm. I want to go back to something you said right at the very beginning.
That will take us into the next section here. That is sort of the. As you put it in quotes, the great cycling paradox, this perhaps false. Sense that there’s a dichotomy between performance and wellbeing, that there’s an either or here. Can you speak to that point?
[00:19:47] Kate Bennett: Yes. So, so often, and this speaks to, I would say any sport in general, but it’s definitely cycling and endurance sports in particular, that to be great, I have to, it has to come at the cost of me, the cost of my wellbeing, the cost of my mental health, the cost of my physical wellbeing, because I have to worry about powered weight or whatever that is.
And so it’s an either or, and sometimes coaches feel like they’re coaching either or. Either I’m coaching this athlete for their wellbeing, or I’m coaching this athlete for their performance. And I would argue we can do both. We can coach performance and wellbeing at the same time, and that’s when we start to put relationships at the center of the work we’re doing.
And, and I mean, if we just even look at the physiology of connection, right? We know that connection supports dopamine and oxytocin and serotonin. And so within that, right? Like if we even just think about like the brain basis of connection, how that supports our athletes and if we can take a moment to honor and acknowledge and invest in them.
And healthy and appropriate ways, right? There’s this idea that we can do both. It’s not an either or. And in fact, when we do both, that’s when we get the most out of our athletes. When we balance wellbeing and performance, that’s when we’re gonna start to hit that soul piece that I was talking about earlier, right?
That spirit, that human soul, that can elevate any brain body experience.
[00:21:07] Chris Case: You totally disagree with that, don’t you?
[00:21:09] Grant Holicky: No, not at all. Do you know me well, Chris, I really think one of the hardest things, everything in our culture pushes towards this over obsessive over optimization piece.
[00:21:22] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:23] Grant Holicky: And we start with this mindset that says, okay, here’s success and here’s success in sports.
This is my job or, or success in job. Right. This is my main focus, so I’m all in on that. I used to sit with athletes, I still do. I sit with athletes and say, okay, gimme your priorities. What are your priorities in life? And it’s really funny because when you do that, very few athletes put their sport first.
They’ll talk about their family, they’ll talk about. Their friends, they’ll talk about their faith. If they’re a very religious person, they’ll talk about these things, and sport comes somewhere third or fourth. Right. But yet they live their lives in a completely different order.
[00:21:59] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:00] Grant Holicky: And there’s nothing wrong with that.
Order flipping. There’s nothing wrong with having, I mean, we’ve talked about it on the show that, uh, having a imbalance at periods of time in your life toward sport, I mean. In some ways you have to, but it’s a, an understanding of how all these things play together with one another. And unbalanced towards sport.
You’re not gonna function well without your sport crew. You’re not gonna function well without your family, your friends, those close people to you. So maybe they take a backseat, but can you have a conversation with ’em first and say, listen, this is the way it’s gonna be for these three weeks at Altitude Camp, but I still need you.
I desperately need you. How do we create those things? And so constantly they’re shifting, right? Mm-hmm. You almost see it like a bar graph, and here are my percentages and constantly in life, they’re shifting. And the off season, your family and friends go. All the way to the top and score goes to zero, and maybe that’s not the best thing for you.
Maybe it shouldn’t go to zero, maybe it should go to 10. But that constant interaction I think is really crucial. And it’s again, something that’s just not talked about. Our culture like wants to reward the obsessive coach who you gotta work at this 24 7 man. Like it’s gotta be your life. It’s gotta be everything.
And they’re divorced three times and they don’t talk to their kids and they don’t do this and they don’t do that. And how many Olympic athletes do we talk about that are dealing with massive depression after they leave sport?
[00:23:20] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:21] Grant Holicky: Because there’s nothing to fill that gap.
[00:23:23] Chris Case: I think this touches upon, you’ve both said the word already, I think, and I want to talk more about the power of connection from a psychological point of view, but also if we can bring in the neuroscience here too.
Like this is not just a woowoo concept here.
[00:23:40] Kate Bennett: There’s no kumbaya, no, we are not sitting around fire singing.
[00:23:43] Chris Case: Yeah. Well,
[00:23:44] Grant Holicky: well we might,
[00:23:45] Kate Bennett: but we could. Yes. That is not the premise,
[00:23:47] Chris Case: but that’s, that changes chemistry and that, you know, like
[00:23:50] Grant Holicky: a hundred percent.
[00:23:51] Chris Case: Right. So. Can you speak to a little bit of the research that has looked at the power of connection?
[00:23:57] Kate Bennett: Yeah, so as I had just mentioned, we know that connection facilitates brain-based changes, right? And so. Oxytocin being that kind of feel good chemical in our body. And we’ve got serotonin, which manages mood. And then most interestingly is a dopamine piece, right? And often we think about dopamine being that reward seeking pathway.
And it is, and here’s the really interesting thing, if we’re thinking about how do we build strong relationships? Well, if I have a really positive interaction with my teammate. Guess what? My brain craves another positive interaction with my teammate. And if my coach or my team manager comes up and says, Hey, I really appreciate what you did for the team out there today.
I know you ended up in the van, but look at what we achieved and that was. In part thanks to you, right? My brain says, I wanna do that again. I’m willing to sacrifice. I’m willing to suffer because that felt good. I felt rewarded and acknowledged and validated because of what I did for my team. And so often what happens in in sport and in cycling in particular, is we start to avoid the negative, right?
And so we start to isolate or avoid. And so we disconnect. And to your point, we. Put numbers to everything, right? I’m as much as my aura ring says, or I’m as much as my power file site, right? And I’m only as good as the calories I ate today. And we reduce ourselves to numbers and think that if we obsess over our numbers, we’ll be great.
But we, we forget that our brain is seeking connection and that reward pathway, that ability to have a human connection and to be able to pat my teammate on the back and say, go get ’em. I’m rooting for you. That creates positive shifts in our own brain chemistry, which then motivates us to continue to work hard, encourages us to sacrifice and to suffer for one another, and really then opens up again that potential for what could be.
[00:25:46] Trevor Connor: We’ve got an awesome story to share from one of our own listeners, Nick G. Nick is an avid cyclist, a busy cybersecurity leader and a new dad. Like many athletes, he had tried different nutrition approaches before, but nothing truly fit the variability of his life, work and training. He rode frequently and focused squarely on performance, but when things got out of balance, he put on 90 pounds and became pre-diabetic, despite his efforts to live a healthy lifestyle.
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[00:26:58] Chris Case: At the beginning we talked about the way of the champion, the way of champions, as we’re talking and having this conversation. It dawns on me in a sense that the word champion is an interesting choice in some ways, because my definition, my personal definition of a champion is a person who stands at the top step of a podium.
But we’re talking about, you know, patting the guy on the back who had a role on the team but didn’t actually stand on the podium. Might have been on a cycling team carrying water bottles, did his work, and then got jettison out the back of the pack halfway through the race. Right? So. I want to have you speak to that in terms of this way, this methodology isn’t just for those who are going to stand on the top step of the podium.
Everybody plays a role and everybody can benefit from this. So why the word champion? I know you didn’t create the name and you’re not the person maybe to ask this question of, but why the word champion in your opinion?
[00:28:03] Kate Bennett: Yeah, I mean, you’re correct. I did not create the name, but to, to me, and I think Jerry would agree to this, that being a champion isn’t necessarily an outcome.
Being a champion is who you are every single day. It’s being resilient, it’s being tenacious, it’s being fearless, it’s being courageous, it’s being a servant leader. And so the way of the champion speaks to how are you being today? And how is that supporting your future success? And that future success might be that I’m the person on the top of the podium, or I might get to wear a gold medal around my neck one day.
Being the champion can also be, I’m the person that got that person there. I’m the person who on every ride together, I pushed them and turned them inside out when you needed to. I’m the person that brought them the water bottles, and so I was a champion in a way that I can measure, which feels intangible, but still feels rewarding and meaningful and purposeful.
[00:28:52] Grant Holicky: I think one of the things that we’ve seen that hearkens back to the Notre Dame sign, Notre Dame football play like a champion today, but it’s also the champion mindset is something we hear in media now. For everybody, you know, have a champion mindset at work or have a champion mindset at school. That champion mindset to me is about what’s the best I can do and how do I let that out?
And it’s really important that how you say it, how do I let that out? It’s in there. How do we let it out? And before we got on air, we were talking about flow state and we’re talking about some of these other things and it’s all about forcing it now. And again, create that space and create that comfort and tap into that passion, and these things come forward.
They come out on their own.
[00:29:36] Kate Bennett: Absolutely. And I would just add to that, like what’s the best I can be today and doesn’t mean anything. Right? Because we have this race to know where to be the best that we can be academically or career wise, professionally. Mm-hmm. Sport wise, but it has to mean something.
[00:29:51] Grant Holicky: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:51] Kate Bennett: Because if I’m just chasing numbers and results and outcomes, I don’t know that I’ll feel like a champion ever. It’ll never be good enough and it’s, it’ll never be enough to fill my soul.
[00:29:58] Grant Holicky: And we see it over and over again. Right. It’s not enough for so many people.
[00:30:02] Kate Bennett: Yeah.
[00:30:03] Chris Case: So for both of you, the next question that comes to my mind is, as coaches, you’re looking to educate people to have a particular mindset.
Through different methods, this being one of them, there’s other ways to do it that are less performance oriented and more process oriented or about connection or intrinsic motivation or all of these other things. Can we explore some of those methods of transformation?
[00:30:31] Kate Bennett: So way of champions is very much about transformational coaching.
So often what Grant speaking of is transactional coaching. What can you give me? What can I get from you as a teammate? What will you give me? What do I need? What do I have to give back to you? Mm-hmm. You know, in this transaction. And so I think that transactional nature of relationships, whether it’s athlete, coach, athlete, it limits our willingness to trust one another.
And it keeps us very me focused. Transformational coaching is more we, what can we do together as focused on cultivating and optimizing and creating space for humans to find their full potential. So it’s less about you have to become this certain person to thrive in my system. But more, let’s help you understand who you are and elevate you as an individual with your own values and vision and purpose and meaning.
And so it’s about nurturing humans through performance opportunities versus getting and giving and receiving. And I would say alongside. Transformational Coaching is this other term I use called servant leader. I’m here to help you. How can I help you? What can I give to you? And here’s the incredible thing.
When you give there without any expectations in return, it is so fulfilling. Oh, you get so much, it feels so good to receive. And they’re not trying to give anything back. Right? And so transformational coaching is an investing in humans. And creating opportunity for them to find their own potential through process and error and trial and mistakes, as well as this idea of servant leadership that I am here to give to you and you will give back to me tenfold without even trying and entrusting in that process.
[00:32:06] Grant Holicky: I wrote a piece about this and I titled it The Problem with Ted Lasso, and a lot of what I wrote about was, most people see that the problem of Ted Lasso is this isn’t reality. This can’t work.
[00:32:17] Pat Warner: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:18] Grant Holicky: And the problem with Ted Lasso is it can. And it does. And this idea of we coaching, I’ve said it for years.
I remember saying, I vividly remember saying this to an assistant coach one time. They don’t work for us, we work for them. And I was talking about our athletes and he looked at me and goes, no, they swim for us. I was like, no they don’t. We’re here for them. And that’s all there is to it. And if you can’t see past that, we got problems.
Because again, it’s faith and trust and it’s all this stuff. There’s another, it’s a little bit more crass than Ted Lasso, but Shorey is such a phenomenal show in some of this same idea. This is about us together. Taking chances and doing this and picking each other up.
[00:33:02] Chris Case: Before you go on, I know this is kind of silly, but not everybody out there maybe has even seen Ted Lasso describe Ted Lasso and his method.
[00:33:11] Grant Holicky: It’s so similar to everything we’re talking about. It’s a guy that comes into coaching soccer with no understanding of soccer. And so what he ends up doing is coaching the individuals and the people, shows
[00:33:24] Chris Case: coaching the sport towards them, shows respect for them, all these things
[00:33:27] Grant Holicky: constantly
[00:33:28] Chris Case: in a goofy sort of way, of
[00:33:29] Grant Holicky: course.
Sure, sure. And but the fundamental background to so much of this is how do you lower the gap? Right. Mm-hmm. We have this idea that, and we’ve been shown this, we’ve been pushed this, I, uh, we were coached this way. I think probably everybody in this room is of an age that we were coached top down.
[00:33:45] Chris Case: You said earlier about putting attributes of coaches you’ve had up on the wall that you’ve liked, and I was like, I’ve never had a coach that I’ve liked.
[00:33:54] Grant Holicky: Yeah.
[00:33:54] Chris Case: That’s the thought. That’s, that’s the thought I’ve had.
[00:33:56] Grant Holicky: And I will say when I was listening to that, one of the things that jumped out at me is. There’s a lot of people of our age that will talk about tough love. They’ll talk about getting pushed, they’ll talk about the strictness, they’ll talk about all that.
But you don’t love that coach that had those attributes unless they gave a, you know, what about you?
[00:34:13] Chris Case: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:34:14] Grant Holicky: Right. But we’ve also had that coach, I had coaches that I looked back at and went, he didn’t care about me. It was division three swimming, and he didn’t care about me.
[00:34:23] Chris Case: It was a job to him.
[00:34:24] Grant Holicky: Yeah. And I was a result to him. And I will, I’ve said this a million times and I’ll say it again. I thought my coaching career was going to change when I got a kid to Olympic trials, when we won a national championship, when we won a sectional championship. When we. I had kids win National Champ USA cycling national championships or top fives in the WOR didn’t change my life at all and frankly, it didn’t change theirs.
[00:34:47] Pat Warner: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:48] Grant Holicky: And it’s funny because I don’t remember the time we won the sectional championship as the swim team. I remember like snippets of it and the pictures and I remember the kids.
[00:34:57] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:57] Grant Holicky: I remember what they did and I’ll get emotional sitting here talking about, or
[00:35:01] Chris Case: having
[00:35:01] Grant Holicky: conversations
[00:35:02] Chris Case: with them about hard stuff that they had to get through to get to that point
[00:35:05] Grant Holicky: or what got them there, what changed, what.
Made it different.
[00:35:09] Chris Case: I can see water in your eyes.
[00:35:11] Grant Holicky: Yeah, always. I mean, that’s as emotional as I get about stuff is about that connection.
[00:35:17] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:17] Grant Holicky: Because that’s what matters. That’s why a kid calls you up 20 years later and goes, she changed my life. And that’s not sitting around as a coach going. The results don’t matter, like the results matter.
It’s part of that process. It’s part of that connection. It’s part of how we all buy in, but it’s the connection that ultimately matters,
[00:35:36] Kate Bennett: right? And it’s that paradox, right? People think it’s results or connection. It can be both.
[00:35:42] Chris Case: Let’s hear from Coach Pat Warner on how he helps his athletes tap into feelings of joy, feelings of gratitude to make those athletes faster.
[00:35:52] Pat Warner: It’s always dependent on the athlete. Every athlete handles this differently, but the most important part I find in coaching is figuring out why they like to ride a bike and what makes it fun for them to ride a bike. And a lot of times when you can figure that out and help them progress in their workouts and have fun at the same time, then you can translate it to race day as well.
And sometimes that might be changing a workout because they love that workout. Coming up to a big event or a big race and moving the workouts that they don’t like that are hugely beneficial but further away. So getting them mentally prepared in a more positive place before the events come up. And then that makes the enjoyment of race day and everything else.
There’s less of a burden getting to that day.
[00:36:37] Chris Case: When you’re coaching athletes, oftentimes I’ve heard from other coaches that they take on a role of a sports psychologist willingly or not. Do you feel like you step into that role? Are you comfortable with that or do you try to avoid that?
[00:36:52] Pat Warner: No, a hundred percent.
I think that’s as much of part of coaching as anything. There’s a lot of AI out there that can look at power files and prescribe workouts, but until you understand and can help them put it all together mentally as well and give them advice and coach them and help them get through things, I think that’s just as important as any workout for any athlete.
[00:37:16] Kate Bennett: Can we go to shame and scarcity mindset?
[00:37:19] Chris Case: Yeah, go for it.
[00:37:20] Kate Bennett: So this idea of shame and scarcity. So, so much of what I do in my mental health practice, right? And this is part of like how have I arrived at where I have worked with so many athletes, from youth athletes to high school, to college Olympic, all the way, the whole spectrum of athletes in this piece of, I’ll never be enough, I’ll never be a good enough.
And endurance sport, I think is particularly unique because there’s only so many spots and they rely on sponsorships and there’s so many few national team opportunities, right? And so there’s always me versus other. There’s not. Enough opportunity. There’s not enough funding. I’m not good enough. If I’m friends with them, then maybe they’ll take my spot, right?
And so that starts to become that scarcity piece. And so shame is the fear of disconnection, but we experience it as not being enough, right? And scarcity is that idea that there will never be enough out there for me to thrive or to fulfill my goals. And so that’s where, when we think about how do we close the gap with the paradox, it is connection.
Because if people can start to feel like they’re worthy and they’re valuable and they matter regardless of whether they have this sponsorship or that opportunity. Then we’re gonna start to see them be fearless and we’re gonna see them to start to trust in their own abilities and they’re gonna start to believe in their programs and they’re gonna start to have a higher purpose and meaning other than just trying to prove themselves with every training ride and every meal and every race opportunity.
[00:38:40] Grant Holicky: There’s some bigger picture statements in there about our culture and our society and our government too that I’m not gonna get into. But you know, there is no team environment. In the world that functions with a mindset of every man for themself.
[00:38:57] Trevor Connor: Sure,
[00:38:58] Grant Holicky: none. None. But yet I think we teach people that. We teach young athletes that by what we show them and what we celebrate and what we go out there and put on a pedestal.
I say this to the cycling athletes all the time. Look, what do you see in a Gatorade commercial? You see the spectacular catch. You see the spectacular workout. You see the huge sacrifice. You don’t see the day in, day out, just. Gonna get up and do it again, and I’m gonna kiss my wife and my baby and I’m gonna get up and I’m gonna do it again.
You don’t see that, but that’s the champion mindset that you get up and you do it again. And I’m there for those people and they’re there for me. And I’m not fighting the other people for the what’s out there, I’m fighting for me for them.
[00:39:48] Pat Warner: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:49] Grant Holicky: And I mean, there’s beautiful, wonderful studies. That have nothing to do with sport about survival, and people don’t survive for themselves.
They survive for other people. There’s study after study of these. People that made it months in the wilderness by themselves, and when they come out and they say, well, how did you do that? I had to get back for them.
[00:40:12] Pat Warner: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:12] Grant Holicky: They never talk about, I had to live for me.
[00:40:15] Chris Case: I
[00:40:15] Grant Holicky: was scared. I had to get back there for them.
That is who we are. That evolutionarily, that is who the human species is. You we’re not meant to be alone. And so we can tap into these things that are evolutionarily real. That bring everybody into the fold and we just get better.
[00:40:33] Chris Case: Do you think that you’re fighting against the perception, fighting against just this archetype of the lonely endurance athlete who goes out, especially cyclists.
There’s a lot of cyclists that I know. That ride by themselves and sort of play up the, yeah. And setting it all aside to just be a better cyclist and I’m doing it by myself. Or do you feel like you’re fighting against that sort of reputation that they feel they must uphold at all?
[00:41:02] Kate Bennett: I don’t know about fighting.
Like the word that comes to me is like empowering them to think differently.
[00:41:07] Chris Case: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:07] Kate Bennett: Because I do agree. I think there’s the stigma of what a successful cyclist is, and it is. All self-sacrificing. Right. Willingness to suffer, willingness to be totally isolated and lonely, but it doesn’t mean they’re happy.
Right? Yeah. And so if we can start opening the conversation up Yes. That’s normal. It doesn’t mean it’s. Happy or Wow, it has been normal. Yeah. You know, then maybe we can, it to me way of champions is culture change, right? And so maybe we can start to change the culture of cycling. Maybe we can start to give people permission to say, I’m actually pretty lonely training by myself every day.
Hey coach, can I go on the group ride? Yeah. The amount of elite and professional cyclists where I’m said, can you just talk to your coach about like an unstructured mountain bike ride just for fun? Like, can we just have fun one day? You know? And so I think that there’s this belief that you have to do that to be great.
But the reality is, is you have to be balanced and you have to be happy.
[00:41:57] Andie Schwartz: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:58] Kate Bennett: To really find your full potential. So I don’t know that so much a fight as giving people permission mm-hmm. To recognize it’s not working for them.
[00:42:05] Grant Holicky: And this is what sport is for so many, uh, people and what it should be for every kid that plays sport, it’s connection.
It’s another opportunity to meet other people. It’s balance, it’s variety, it’s all those things. And I can’t agree with you more. Kate is like, are we trying to change something? No, it’s just a reframing, like you can still do this in a different way and have a lot of fun.
[00:42:29] Chris Case: So we’ve been talking so much about the power of connection, how fruitful it can be.
Can you get more specific and talk about strategies that athletes can use to find connection with their teammates, with their competitors? How does someone get this connection? Get more of it.
[00:42:49] Kate Bennett: So one of the biggest things that we talk about with way of champions is marinating people in the river and the river being an acronym.
So R, respect I important V valued, E Empowered. And the last R is relevant. So when you’re interacting with people, starting to think about how am I helping this person to feel respected or important or valued? Am I empowering them? Do they feel relevant in my presence? Do I make time to hear their story and make sure they feel like their story is meaningful to me?
So I think if we approach all relationships with the river. That’s where we start to get that dopamine response I was mentioning earlier. Right? I want more of that. Give me more of that river effect. And truly that’s what Jerry gives to me. And Jerry tells this story about how way back when, he was the early career psychologist at the University of North Carolina.
He was working with the women’s cross country team, and he had come into Coach Dean Smith, legendary basketball coach. To his secretary at the time, and he was like, I’d like to schedule a meeting with Coach Smith, please. And he’s like, sweaty, dirty, disgusting. Just got back from a practice. And she’s like, oh, he’s in his office.
I’ll go get him. And this is like in the seventies. He’s like, no, I’ll come back. Just tell me when. I’ll go home, change, clean up and come back. And she’s like, no, he’s right here. He’s ready for you. And so he goes in and sits with Dean Smith and he just tells the story about how after sitting with Dean, like he would’ve licked the basketball floor clean for him.
That’s how important he felt in that moment. Mm-hmm. And truly, that’s how I feel when I’m with Jerry, that you make me feel so important and so relevant and so valued. I will do anything that you ask of me. And so if we can think about how do we give a little bit of the river. To the athletes, to our teammates, to our spouses, to the other people in our life, right?
That is the way of the champion. But other kind of more practical, concrete, tangible strategies could be as a coach, just making it a habit to check in with one athlete a day off the cuff. Not like, oh, we have a scheduled call, but I know that you just got home from traveling. How was your trip home? For an athlete and a teammate, you know, we talk a lot about in basketball and soccer, point out the person who assisted you.
Right? Point the finger and you’ll see that. Abby Womack talks about that in her book Wolf Pack, right? Always point out your teammate. Cycling. We can’t do that ’cause it’s like mass chaos at the end of the race, right? You can’t just be pointing out your teammates, but on the podium you can. If they’re around in the interviews afterwards with the reporters, you can mention your teammates.
Caitlyn Clark does that with regards to her Indiana Fever teammates all the time. And so pointing out your teammates helps people to feel relevant and important expressing gratitude. Thanks for getting here early and letting me talk, or, hey, thanks for giving me your shop blocks. I totally forgot my food.
[00:45:23] Chris Case: Thanks for getting here today. Two minutes early, grant. Yes. Thank you.
[00:45:26] Grant Holicky: That was a win.
[00:45:28] Kate Bennett: Um,
[00:45:28] Grant Holicky: that was for you.
[00:45:29] Kate Bennett: And so it’s simple strategies, but those simple strategies of people feeling acknowledged and important, they go a long way with regards to connection and this overall idea of how do we elevate one another to really figure out what we can achieve together?
[00:45:44] Grant Holicky: Mm. One of the things that I would like to add to that is that idea, and, you know, you guys talk about it in, in the river in a slightly different word, but self-determination theory talks about it a lot with relatedness. I’ll say to my teams a lot just. Tell me your fears. Tell me what you want. Tell me what you need, and we’re gonna do it in a group.
And you will be shocked at how many people go, yeah, me too.
[00:46:07] Pat Warner: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:08] Grant Holicky: Yeah, me too. As a coach, if you can create that environment where vulnerability is okay, if you can create that environment that’s safe, again, we talk about that word safe. You’ll be shocked at what people share, and you’ll be shocked at as soon as that person’s willing to share that.
What starts rolling out of your mouth? There’s a great quote and I, it’s like Jefferson or somebody, it’s a long time ago. Tell the world what you want and you’ll find people that want to help just tell the world what you want and people come out of the woodwork to support you, but you have to tell the world what you want.
And I think that’s. Really important in a training group or in a team environment, or even with competitors. Like, I wanna beat you. I wanna win this race. Yeah, me too. All right.
[00:46:56] Chris Case: How do you create that atmosphere that allows people to be honest when it’s scary?
[00:47:02] Grant Holicky: I think the coach, the so many people look to the coach as the leader, but the leaders, whether that’s the coach or an athlete, or.
The medal performance coach or in some locker rooms, it’s the kit guy. You know who, whoever the leader is has to be willing to be vulnerable. And I can’t.
[00:47:20] Chris Case: It’s a domino effect.
[00:47:22] Grant Holicky: After that, it really is when the coach is willing to walk in and say, yeah guys, I’m really sorry. I’m struggling today. I’m having a really hard day.
This is what happened. This is what’s going on at home. Having a really hard day. And I don’t know that I ever really used it as a tool, but what I always would see is when I shared that, oh my god. God, did they tear themselves inside and out that day to perform? They did. They were unbelievable, but it had to be genuine.
And if it were genuine,
[00:47:54] Chris Case: it can’t do that every day.
[00:47:56] Grant Holicky: No, you can’t. You can’t come back.
[00:47:57] Chris Case: That would be bad.
[00:47:58] Grant Holicky: No, it would, but it, like I said, it can’t be a tool. Mm-hmm. It has to be genuine. Sure. It has to be real. And when you’re willing to be vulnerable outwardly, people suddenly start to get vulnerable back to you.
And again, I mean, you see it with your kids when you look at how your kids look at you is a little bit of how an athlete looks at a coach. And you say, yeah, man. Like, yeah, I get scared. What? I remember me saying that to one of my children and my kid looking at me going, what do you get scared of Dad? And you have this realization of like, oh yeah, they think I am.
Something I’m not, they think I’m Superman. Right. And you’re not.
[00:48:35] Chris Case: Yeah, they’re, you’re shattering the vision they have of you in some ways, but that’s
[00:48:38] Grant Holicky: good. But at the same time, they share back immediately. Right. And I think that’s huge because as a coach, often you cultivate what you want them to see. But unfortunately.
We can over cultivate that and they don’t see your real vulnerability, your real passion, your real emotion, and without that, they’re not always willing to show theirs.
[00:49:03] Kate Bennett: Right. You reminded me of something, grant, that I just think is a great acronym, so that idea of like. Creating space for them to share.
One of the most powerful things a coach could say to an athlete or a parent could say to a child is when they come in to talk to you. You know, so often as coaches or as a psychologist, like I have a whole list of things I wanna talk about. But I always start with, what’s the most important thing thing you want me to know about you today?
[00:49:25] Andie Schwartz: Mm-hmm.
[00:49:26] Kate Bennett: Because it might be that my mom got sick, or mm-hmm. My cat died, you know, and here I was gonna talk about a power file or Right, right. You know, like, I taught you mindfulness last week. How’s it going? Mm-hmm. And so I think that importance of just like, what’s important to you right now, and the acronym is Win what I need.
Right. So if we start asking them how to win the day, what I need, then they’re gonna start to express it and speak to it more openly. To your point, you know, that idea that I, I’m, I’m creating the culture that I care about you. Mm-hmm. And, and what you need is important to me.
[00:49:54] Chris Case: Very good. I wanna shift gears a little bit as we approach the end of the episode flow state, something we’ve probably all heard.
It’s quite popular to talk about it. It’s probably being presented erroneously in many ways, out in popular culture on Instagram and and so forth. But I want to touch upon it. It’s in our outline. It pertains to a lot of the things we’ve talked about today. Can you tell us why it’s connected to the things that we’ve talked about today?
And then also explain what you mean by flow and flow state in a genuine psychological sense.
[00:50:35] Kate Bennett: So flow is this idea that I am so present in the moment that I’m not even thinking about what I’m executing. My mind and my body are executing. Without command, without conscious thought. They’re just going through the motion.
And really that’s the point of training that we train our minds and we train our bodies so that when we show up to performance situations, we don’t have to think about how to be, we just start doing the things we’ve trained our bodies to do. And truly, the less we think, the closer we get to flow it is this pure, mindful experience.
So when I start to think about flow and community and connection and way of champions. Really, we start to think about fear and flow. If an athlete does not feel psychologically safe, if they think they’re not okay to make a mistake, if they’re worried about what their coach is gonna say, if they’re gonna get pulled from the list for the race, if they’re worried that they’re gonna get benched because of a mistake that they made in practice or competition, they start operating outta fear.
And fear and flow are mutually exclusive. You can’t be scared and inflow at the same time. Mm-hmm. Because when you’re scared, you’re constantly thinking about what’s happening, what’s gonna happen, and what could happen and what might happen. And you’re in the past and you’re in the future. And so when we think about how do we create space for flow, right?
First of all, you can’t architect it. You don’t arrive five steps into it. You create space for it to arrive on its own, but. For us to have that space to enter into flow, we need to have that psychological safety, that trust, and that belief that whether I make a mistake or I perform flawlessly, I will be okay.
I will be valued and I will matter and I will still be relevant to the people who care about me. And so way of champions, I think, starts to build that idea of safety through the river effect, through this idea that you matter. Through the idea that we take risks together and through risk we rise and learn more about how to compete.
And the more I trust that I am safe, the less I have to worry about losing opportunities, which then opens my heart and my mind, and I, I’ve used that word soul, and spirit, right? Creates that, that openness that I can start to soar into a space that I can’t consciously reach through Thoughts.
[00:52:36] Grant Holicky: Flow is this ideal state where we just kind of let go, right?
There’s a concept in Taoism that talks about you’re on a raft in a river. There’s nothing you can do about what’s behind you in the river. Mm-hmm. And there’s a whole lot of nothing you can do about what you don’t know is in front of you in the river. All you can do is something in the moment to best prepare yourself for what might be down there or to recover and get back to strength from what happened to you up there.
Only thing we can do about right now is right now.
[00:53:07] Pat Warner: Mm-hmm.
[00:53:07] Grant Holicky: And it’s a wonderful thought and it’s a wonderful place. And so much of what Kate talks about in the way of the champion is that idea of presence. And be here, right here, right now, and I’ll yell at Athletes in Races right here, right now. And it’s to the guy who’s winning.
Like Uhuh, don’t go thinking about when we’re done. Think about right here, right now. What’s the next turn? What’s the gravel like on that next turn? What’s that drop? Like, what’s this? You know, what’s this final climb like? It’s that idea of presence, that idea of in the moment and flow, it’s so much easier to be in the moment.
It’s so much easier to be present when you know people have your back. And I think that’s. What’s important, whether that’s a coach, whether it’s your family, whether it’s your friends, whether it’s your wife, your your husband. Does somebody have my back? Okay. I got this. And I think that’s a huge piece of the puzzle.
[00:54:02] Chris Case: Hmm. Let’s close out with a little story time, shall we? Kate, you have a story that you would like to close with?
[00:54:08] Kate Bennett: I do.
[00:54:09] Chris Case: In the notes, it just says Redwoods story.
[00:54:12] Kate Bennett: That’s all I needed. You’re gonna get the story now. So the Redwoods, you know, they’re incredibly powerful living organisms that we can learn so much from.
And the way I like to think of them is, first we just visualize them, right? So we visualize these massive trees that reach hundreds and. Hundreds of feet into the air, and we know that they’re thousands of years old and they’re so wide that you can’t wrap your arms around ’em. It takes many, many, many people, right, an entire group or team to maybe wrap around the base of some of these redwoods.
And so we’ve got these towering trees that are hundreds of feet in the air. And their roots only go 10 to 12 feet under. And so we start to think about how do these redwoods survive thousands of years of infestations and wildfires and droughts and all the environmental elements, and yet the roots are only 10 to 12 feet into the ground. Where does the resilience come from? And the really powerful thing about the redwoods is they reach out. Mm-hmm. And so their roots go hundreds of feet out and they wrap around each other’s roots and they hold each other up as a community. And so their rings of redwood forests holding one another up. And that’s where the resilience comes from, is the community connection underneath the ground. The thing that we can’t see. Is the most powerful, vital part of their unit in their system. And so when I think about cycling or any sport, right? Like how do we rise? Like the redwoods, the results are the trees haul high, high into the air, but how do we get the results? It’s these roots that don’t go. Deep down for me, they spread wide and they hold onto one another, which allows us to achieve incredible things, incredible feats, survive manifestations and droughts and fires. And so I think we can all learn stories from the Redwoods with regards to the more we extend our hands in connection and community and cultivate cultures that allow us to love and care about one another. Then the more we’re gonna elevate each other and the more growth, the more progress, the more potential we’ll find in the years to come.
[00:56:09] Chris Case: Excellent. I almost don’t want to do take homes because that’s the message that we should leave with. Right.
[00:56:15] Grant Holicky: I agree with that. That’s beautiful.
[00:56:17] Chris Case: Perfect. Thank you, Kate for joining us today.
Thank you, grant.
[00:56:20] Kate Bennett: Thank you for having me.
[00:56:23] Chris Case: That was another episode of Fast Talk. Subscribe to Fast Talk wherever you prefer to find your favorite podcast. Be sure to leave us a rating and review. Don’t forget we’re now on YouTube. Give us a like and subscribe there too and help us reach new audiences. As always, remember that the thoughts and opinions expressed on Fast Talk are those of the individual.
We love your feedback, so join the conversation@fasttalklabs.com. Join us on social media at Fast Talk Labs for access to our endurance sports knowledge base. Continuing education for coaches as well as our in-person and remote athletes services. Head to Fast Talk labs.com for Dr. Kate Bennett and Grant hokey.
I’m Chris Case. Thanks for listening.
