In this week’s show, we talk about training over the holidays, why discomfort is important to our development, and our goals for 2023.
Episode Transcript
Chris Case 00:05
Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Fast Talk: your source for the science of endurance performance. Who’s this guy?
Rob Pickels 00:12
The best damn voice Fast Talk has ever had, sounds like to me.
Chris Case 00:15
I am Chris Case, I’m making my maiden return to the show, and today we’re doing a potluck. We’ve got Grant Holicky in the studio, Trevor Connor sitting across from me, Rob Pickels sitting next to me. Welcome everybody. Can I even say that?
Rob Pickels 00:32
No, this is incredible. It is so good to hear your voice.
Chris Case 00:35
Wow. Thank you.
Trevor Connor 00:36
Rob came ready, he got himself sick so we’re gonna get a good radio voice.
Rob Pickels 00:42
Trying to keep up with him.
Chris Case 00:45
Keep practicing buddy.
Grant Holicky 00:46
Face for radio.
Chris Case 00:49
Today’s episode of Fast Talk is brought to you by Alter Exploration. Created by me, Fast Talk Labs co-founder Chris Case, Alter Exploration crafts custom cycling journeys that create opportunities for both physical and mental transformation. Alter Exploration, what we do is all in our name. Alter’s journeys are meant to be challenging. Your skill and fitness will be tested, and you’ll stand a good chance of transforming yourself in small, but significant ways – Alter. Alter’s journeys are intended to be all terrain tours on any and all surfaces – Alter. Then there’s exploration. This won’t be a vacation so much as an exploration of you and the destination. Reach a greater understanding of your physical and mental capabilities, while simultaneously experiencing a stunning landscape. Life. Altered. Learn more about my favorite adventure destinations and start dreaming at alterexploration.com. Tell me more about what we’re doing today.
Trevor Connor 01:53
You’ve never done a Potluck? Grant, you named it, can you explain what this is?
Grant Holicky 01:59
It’s a little bit of everything, a little bit of nothing.
Rob Pickels 02:02
Just a little.
Grant Holicky 02:03
You know, it is like that beautiful potluck dinner where you might get yourself some chicken wings, you might get yourself a great dessert and somebody might bring ambrosia.
Rob Pickels 02:12
Yeah and you could get food poisoning.
Grant Holicky 02:15
It’s 50/50 shot.
Rob Pickels 02:16
You could win listening to this, you could lose listening to this – hopefully you’re entertained.
Grant Holicky 02:22
Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, you’re always gonna be entertained.
Rob Pickels 02:24
Always entertained.
Grant Holicky 02:25
I hope.
Rob Pickels 02:26
I just hope that I laugh maniacally when I’m reviewing the episodes, then I feel really good.
Grant Holicky 02:32
That’s what you feel like when we’re doing well?
Rob Pickels 02:33
That’s the bar. That’s my thumbs up right there – if I spend at least a quarter of the time laughing.
Chris Case 02:38
Can we hear the maniacal laugh now?
Rob Pickels 02:40
No, dude, no, I need to be inspired. Later.
Chris Case 02:44
All right.
Grant Holicky 02:44
It might not happen.
Chris Case 02:46
It probably won’t. I’m here.
Trevor Connor 02:49
So I’m being silent here because I would just go in through all the programs on my computer to find the notes for this episode and all the research I’m going to pull in and I’m like “that’s right, right, we don’t have -“
Rob Pickels 02:59
And most importantly, Trevor has a computer. He’s keeping the trend of –
Trevor Connor 03:04
And I don’t know why I do because it’s just not part of a potluck…
Grant Holicky 03:08
I’m not sure what he’s ready for. But he’s ready.
Rob Pickels 03:10
Well, I think that he is giving the illusion of being ready because he came in and opened his computer.
Chris Case 03:15
That’s Trevor.
Rob Pickels 03:16
Exactly.
Chris Case 03:16
The llusion of Ready.
Trevor Connor 03:17
No, usually we come into an episode and we have a conversation, we go through the outline, “what are we going to talk about”, “what research do we want to come in or bring into this?”. I literally came in here, I’m like, “what are we talking about?”
Grant Holicky 03:17
Well what we – I feel like in a potluck what we have to plan for is how much time is allotted for making fun of each individual person on the potluck. Because I can see Trevor’s screen on his computer right now. You guys don’t want to know what’s on it.
Rob Pickels 03:40
I’m sure that I don’t but maybe we should record some of these insults as B-roll that we can then sprinkle into other episodes.
Chris Case 03:47
Yeah, yeah and why not all one episode?
Rob Pickels 03:50
It’s kind of true.
Trevor Connor 03:51
You see what’s happened since you’ve left?
Chris Case 03:53
Chaos.
Trevor Connor 03:53
Devolved.
Grant Holicky 03:54
Don’t rope me in, what did you want?
Chris Case 03:56
What – what I want to see Trevor is for you, I want you to freestyle today. Don’t – you don’t need a computer. It’s all in your brain.
Trevor Connor 04:03
You ready for this?
Chris Case 04:04
Yeah, shut it down. Doesn’t that feel good?
Trevor Connor 04:09
No.
Grant Holicky 04:09
It’s freeing.
Rob Pickels 04:12
Blood pressure dropped.
Chris Case 04:14
Just turned beet red.
Rob Pickels 04:17
All right, so we made fun of Trevor for the computer. Grant, you’re wearing a hat today so we can’t tell if you showered or not.
Grant Holicky 04:22
I haven’t showered.
Trevor Connor 04:25
Somebody had to say that right.
Grant Holicky 04:27
I got on the phone with Steven High this morning – we’re talking about the Christmas trip for cyclocross – and I said if you didn’t answer I was gonna take a shower, but I turned to my wife and said “if I go to the podcast smelling a little bit”, she looks – I paused and she looks at me and she goes “well that’s on brand”.
Chris Case 04:45
I was actually complimented by Rob this morning for walking in looking showered. He didn’t say I didn’t –
Trevor Connor 04:52
Do want to continue that conversation where then he said “and Grant’s gonna be late and I’m showered”.
Chris Case 04:57
Yeah, that’s exactly what I’m getting at. On-brand, everybody so far is on brand.
Grant Holicky 05:02
We’re all on brand. Rob looks just so put together.
Rob Pickels 05:05
I don’t even know what my brand is.
Grant Holicky 05:07
I don’t know that anybody knows what your brand is, it’s just you.
Chris Case 05:10
What is your wife say your brand is? (laughs) Silent.
Rob Pickels 05:15
Can we have Live Collins to the show?
Grant Holicky 05:17
Phone-a-friend.
Chris Case 05:17
“Hey, sweetheart.”
Rob Pickels 05:24
She would she loves me. So she would fake it.
Grant Holicky 05:27
She would fake it.
Rob Pickels 05:28
Yes, thank you.
Grant Holicky 05:29
Because she loves me –
Rob Pickels 05:30
Because she loves me.
Chris Case 05:31
She’d go to Confession afterwards, but…
Grant Holicky 05:31
– she would make something up.
Rob Pickels 05:39
She’d have to pull out that list of compliments that she keeps on the side, right?
Grant Holicky 05:43
It’s on the back of her phone.
Rob Pickels 05:44
Exactly.
Trevor Connor 05:47
We are 5-0-9 into this episode, and we have accomplished nothing.
Chris Case 05:51
Hey, Grant said we were – that’s the little bit of nothing that we –
Grant Holicky 05:55
I mean, this is the episode, this is why –
Chris Case 05:57
There’s at least six people still listening, right?
Rob Pickels 05:59
What would happen if we had a Seinfeld episode that was just about nothing.
Grant Holicky 06:02
That’s – isn’t that what that’s what potluck is? That was what I wanted to do –
Trevor Connor 06:07
Sticking with the potluck analogy, we have walked to the smorgasbord of a table, filled a plate with just the lettuce and walked away.
Grant Holicky 06:16
Oh, no, I think we got the – we got the good stuff. I don’t know what the good stuff is, but we went there and got pudding.
Chris Case 06:22
Does this remind you a little of Off Course?
Grant Holicky 06:25
Yeah, it does. For those who don’t know –
Chris Case 06:28
Because there’s a lot of them out there.
Grant Holicky 06:30
Yeah, Off Course was my short-lived podcast and I loved the fact that it was just kind of like, “Hey, you’re my guest, what do you wanna talk about today?”
Rob Pickels 06:39
Did you prepare it all?
Grant Holicky 06:40
Yeah, a little bit.
Rob Pickels 06:42
I mean, you called the guest.
Chris Case 06:45
He looked up their phone number. I texted somebody to get their phone number.
Grant Holicky 06:48
I generally had a question or two.
Rob Pickels 06:50
“Hey, you! Will you come on my podcast?”
Grant Holicky 06:52
I liked it.
Trevor Connor 06:53
Allow me to rephrase my analogy. We have walked away, not with the mixed greens, the iceberg lettuce.
Rob Pickels 07:00
Iceberg lettuce. I don’t know, man. I need some Buffalo chicken casserole.
Grant Holicky 07:05
Yeah, you know, this is just where we all differ in opinion. If it doesn’t have research, you think it’s iceberg lettuce – I think it’s, you know, tuna surprise.
Rob Pickels 07:15
Eugh.
Chris Case 07:15
Tuna surprise…
Training and Goals Over the Holidays
Trevor Connor 07:17
Grant, hit it with some meat – what’s your question?
Grant Holicky 07:19
Okay, so my question is to all of you and to everybody out there with the holidays coming up – a lot of us are off work and maybe we can look back at what you did over Thanksgiving – but what is an athlete’s response? What is your response to when you have that time off from work for the holidays? Do you train more? Do you train less? What’s your goal? What are you trying to do over that time?
Rob Pickels 07:45
Well, I know I took the week off of Thanksgiving, and I went to Tucson and had a little mini training camp but that’s not normally what I would do and it’s not what I would do over the Christmas holidays to tell you the truth. But in November, I was all about training and it’s December now. So I’ve turned that faucet off.
Grant Holicky 08:01
Why were you all about training in November? Did you have a-
Chris Case 08:05
He was preparing for December.
Rob Pickels 08:06
Exactly, I knew December was coming, so I needed that last ditch effort. No, I don’t know, you know, more than anything it was just – we were going to a place that was warm –
Grant Holicky 08:15
Yeah.
Rob Pickels 08:15
And it was a new place for me to explore some trails I had never been on before. I was almost more excited about that, I think, than the training itself to tell you the truth. And so it was just kind of how the opportunity struck in all honesty.
Grant Holicky 08:27
I guess my – big part of my question is, I feel like with the athlete I coach that work, when they have time off work what I always get from them is “I got time off, we should push a huge weekend, I want to put it in a huge week.” And I feel like sometimes it ignores other things in their lives of what they might be having to do or wanting to do or the point of “you’re off work, man” like relax a little bit.
Chris Case 08:27
What you’re looking for one of us to say is that people should not try to do too much, especially this time of year when there’s family stress and life stress and –
Grant Holicky 09:04
Well, I’ll just say that you don’t have to –
Chris Case 09:07
I know, I know. I’m joking and that – I could sense that that’s what, kind of, is in your head. But it depends, I think you said the operative word, which is “what’s your goal” –
Grant Holicky 09:18
Right.
Chris Case 09:19
If your goal is to finish strong the cyclocross season, then you probably do take some time to train or at least don’t let yourself de-train for a week –
Grant Holicky 09:29
Right.
Chris Case 09:29
But if you’re, you know, the rest of us –
Rob Pickels 09:33
He looked at me for what it’s worth, just so you know.
Chris Case 09:37
No, you’re planning to take the time off because you’re not racing, nobody – most of us are racing anytime soon so let your mind…like let things go for a while, don’t take that attitude that I found myself getting caught up in when I was still racing a lot this time of year which was “oh my god, I can’t even be around people because I want to avert at any risk of getting sick because I got to go to Masters nationals and all this stuff”, and that’s the antithesis of what you should be doing this time of year. You should be with family, you should be relaxing, you should be enjoying yourself. You should maybe even be eating a little too much if, you know, like just let loose a little bit.
Grant Holicky 10:17
Well, I think it was funny that you mentioned the getting sick thing because yesterday a couple of my athletes that are going to cyclocross nationals came over to the house to pick something up and they stayed outside. Because I have two kids under the age of eight.
Rob Pickels 10:29
They’re petri dishes.
Grant Holicky 10:30
Yeah, my house is a petri dish.
Rob Pickels 10:32
Well, that’s – nevermind.
Grant Holicky 10:34
Probably was my – the case when I was single.
Chris Case 10:37
Very true. It’s better now.
Grant Holicky 10:41
But from a sickness point of view, not from a mold point of view, it is a petri dish – got it. But, but – so they stayed outside. That doesn’t have to be the norm and I think that – cyclocross is always funny, because I think everybody’s always getting ready for a 45 minute race at Masters Nationals and they’d get into the Christmas period when it used to be in January –
Chris Case 11:02
Yeah.
Grant Holicky 11:03
And they train, train, train, train train, and I’m out there fishing and hanging out.
Chris Case 11:07
Yeah.
Grant Holicky 11:08
I’m getting ready for 45 minute race, like how fit do I need to be? But,Trevor, you have a very different point of view of the holidays.
Trevor Connor 11:16
Well, I’m mixed. So I will tell you my own experience, I’d always do a big training camp right before I’d go home to visit my family – so I do four or five days beat myself up and then I would go and pretty much relax
Grant Holicky 11:31
Was that your penance? Were you just preparing to see your family like, you know –
Trevor Connor 11:36
Part of it was I lived on the West Coast, I didn’t have a bike in Toronto – I wasn’t bringing my bike bag with me so I couldn’t ride my bike or jog when I was there – so I just enjoy the time with my family. I do have athletes that I’ve coached, I have one athlete who takes two weeks off during the holidays and he loves that the time to do a big block. So we’ll do a big four or five day block, but we’ll time it so then he can also use part of the holidays to relax and rest afterwards.
Grant Holicky 12:02
That’s one of the things that I really like coaching is using the organic trips, or the organic things to just let that be a rest week. So kind of what Trevor is saying is load up, load up, load up and then just be in this place where you get to just go on that trip without a bike, relax, chill out –
Chris Case 12:25
Let go.
Grant Holicky 12:26
Let go, have an extra beer – or three – and just not worry about it for a couple days.
Rob Pickels 12:32
Well, I kind of – I look at the holiday period, just like I look at even recovery days in the middle of a training cycle, there are people who will be like, “Okay, well, today’s a recovery or a rest day, I’m going to lift weights today instead of riding.” –
Chris Case 12:32
Yeah.
Grant Holicky 12:44
Right, right, right.
Rob Pickels 12:45
Are you sure that you’re actually taking a day off? Are you sure your body’s recuperating? You’re probably just overstressing it more by doing this weight lifting activity and that’s the same thing coming into the holiday period. I think that everybody – and we talk about this all the time – you need some detraining so that you can come back even stronger in the future. Otherwise, you just have this very monotonous week, in week out throughout the entire year. And taking that step back is hugely important.
Grant Holicky 13:11
You know, I think the other part of that coin too, is what kind of stress are you dealing with outside of training, so you can load up and then relax when you go on a trip. But you’re probably loaded up at work too leading into that time off, so I think it’s the ebb and flow, you got to be careful of all those pieces of the puzzle. Never forget that it’s not just training stress that causes the body to break down.
Chris Case 13:37
I want to dig into my vault of Fast Talk memories, now, going all the way back to a episode that Trevor and I recorded with Brent Bookwalter.
Grant Holicky 13:49
I really wanted you to go “going all the way back to Episode 37” –
Chris Case 13:54
No, 37, 37. Let’s see what number – that was very close to my first episode – this was probably episode 65, maybe. And we talked a lot about the balance of training stress and all the travel that he as a pro was doing and all this sort of stuff and one thing that always stuck with me – and I’ve thought about it plenty before and after that time – was the whole “oh my god, I’m going on a trip, I gotta just destroy myself before that trip”. The one thing you have to worry, maybe not one thing, but one of the things you have to worry about there is you beat yourself up super bad. And then you put yourself into a germ infested environment like an airport or a plane or whatever and your risk of getting sick or something goes goes up because you’ve beat your body up and your immune system’s not what it should be. So just be wary of that fact as well.
Trevor Connor 14:50
This is a risk and I just told you about what I used to do, which was do a training camp and then fly right to Toronto and I look back at my time when I was living in British Columbia and doing that every year. And almost every year I will get back to Toronto and get sick.
Chris Case 15:03
Yeah, yeah.
Trevor Connor 15:04
I do a big training camp get on the plane the next day and I just wasn’t thinking.
Grant Holicky 15:07
So yeah, I think all these things kind of come back to what I was asking – and I appreciate everybody’s answers – I think just look at your individual situation, right? What do we say all the time? It depends. What’s the right thing to do? Well, it depends.
Trevor Connor 15:22
Yeah. So I want to throw a scenario at you and hear what you think about this – I mean, hearing you kind of push towards that maybe you you do try to take a break when you have those holidays, and not try to train hard – you know, I’m a big believer in the training camp. So with my athletes in the base season, I like to have that about every four weeks, a big four or five day block where we beat them up. And a lot of my athletes say that’s their favorite time, they love to do those blocks, they love to beat themselves up. Problem is you do that in February, you’re having to figure out how to fit around work, you might have to take a couple hours off work, whether – there’s a lot of factors that play in to be able to get that time and it’s a big sacrifice. You get to the end of December holidays and it isn’t a sacrifice, you have the time sitting right there to do a four day block where you’re not apologizing to the boss and everything else, it would be hard for me to go to those athletes and say, “You know what, I know you have the giant opportunity to do something you love, why don’t we take the time off and do nothing”.
Grant Holicky 16:26
Well, remember that I think my point is more of “is what you’re doingadding to your stress?”. So if you’re in a situation where it doesn’t add to your stress, like “I got a bike there, I can just go and do this and normally I’m gone eight hours a day for work and I’m only really going to be gone four hours a day on my bike so everybody’s still getting a win family-wise and all those things” – yeah, go do it! My concern is that I think the travel and the time with family and all of those things can be in and of itself a stressor –
Trevor Connor 16:59
Yes.
Grant Holicky 16:59
And hauling your bike there and people who want to spend time with you. I think there’s – I end up feeling like this is super important in relationships is we go to the beach every year as a family and I always want to bring my bike because it’s July. My wife wants to go sit on the beach so for our first couple of years, I was always bringing my bike and she’s like “Yeah, I’ll go ride too, fine, fine, fine.” She’s never really said anything and eventually I was just like, “You know what, I’m not gonna bring my bike”. And she looked at me and said, “Thank God”. So, you know, it was one of those things that just took me a little while to catch up on. So I think –
Chris Case 17:34
That’s not the first time that’s happened.
Grant Holicky 17:37
Yeah, nor will it be the last, but I do think it is very personal, right, and there is that opportunity to do that for people. So go do it. The last thing I will say about that is be very careful that you’re not committed to this as the training camp, when it’s the end of December and you could – like don’t go spend five hours a day inside on Zwift because the weather sucks and think that that’s the same stress as getting five hours outside, like, be willing to adapt.
Trevor Connor 18:09
Put on your unit clothing. Go out when the weather sucks and do five hours.
Grant Holicky 18:14
That’s the Canadian in you.
Rob Pickels 18:17
Chris, you – you have a question for us today, this is your first one, man. What do you got?
Chris Case 18:22
Yeah. And it’s a bit of a philosophical question but I’d also like to try to bring in some science if if it’s out there. We got science? Okay, great. So the question is –
Trevor Connor 18:33
They torture me with that line, I’m not allowed to read it.
Physical and Mental Benefits of Being Uncomfortable
Chris Case 18:36
Pretty simple question, what are the benefits of getting uncomfortable in an athletic sense, both physically and mentally? Who wants to jump on that one?
Rob Pickels 18:48
The best part of this question is, I think that Chris sent this during my Tucson training camp just after I had run into a cactus with my hand and I sent them a picture saying “Does this qualify as discomfort?” I don’t necessarily think that that’s what you’re talking.
Chris Case 19:03
That’s not exactly what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the type of discomfort that comes about from – maybe it’s a, what Trevor does, it’s a training camp or a training block that is longer than something you’ve ever done before or it’s a set of intervals that takes you to a place you’ve never been before.
Grant Holicky 19:24
Or it’s coming on his podcast and not being allowed to have his computer open to the research the whole time –
Chris Case 19:29
That – that’s discomfort for him.
Trevor Connor 19:30
Notice I was actually looking at the outside of my computer. I’m so uncomfortable not be able to use my computer, I’m now looking at this –
Chris Case 19:36
He’s lookin for research scribbled on the back of his –
Grant Holicky 19:40
In the computer.
Trevor Connor 19:43
Oh, even I literally just picked up my computer and looked at the case.
Chris Case 19:46
I saw you do that. I should have made a comment but I didn’t – so that’s the type of discomfort I’m talking about. And again, it’s the physical discomfort, mental discomfort. Why should people strive to get to that place – not every day, obviously, but occasionally?
Trevor Connor 20:02
I have an answer but I think Grant is going to tackle me.
Chris Case 20:05
Please, I want to see both both of these things.
Rob Pickels 20:07
I don’t know that would be discomfort for me to watch this happen.
Trevor Connor 20:10
I’m gonna bring in some evolutionary biology.
Chris Case 20:13
Great. That’s what I want to hear.
Grant Holicky 20:14
I like evolutionary biology.
Trevor Connor 20:16
Excellent. So this is actually really interesting study on mental processes that explains a lot of why you see people respond the way they do in politics. So the study actually looked at people’s political response, why people are so quick to believe things that agree with their opinions – so things I read on Facebook a lot, and I don’t want to go too into the politics side but this is what motivated this study – our brains actually use a lot of energy. And remember, we evolved in a time when we had a caloric scarcity so you only really want to use energy when you absolutely have to. Our brains actually evolved in a way to be able to recognize situations, recognize things that you’ve seen before, process it –
Chris Case 21:03
Find patterns.
Trevor Connor 21:04
– and deal with it, using very, very little energy. This is the whole origins of stereotyping. There’s actually an evolutionary reason for that – if you stereotype, you don’t have to think about it very hard in the future, you conserve energy. So we actually have two levels of our brains, we have that very quick, “I’ve seen this before”, “I’m going to stereotype”, “this agrees with what I want to think so I’m going to favor it because I conserve energy”, then there is what is called uncomfortable thinking, where you have to process something. It disagrees with what you might already believe – you have to think deeply about it to understand, that requires a lot of energy. So we are hardwired to only do that when absolutely necessary. So if what you are used to suddenly isn’t in line with surviving, like “I keep doing this thing, and I keep getting hurt”, then you’re willing to do the “let’s go to that higher level of thinking and change my cognitions, change the way I think”, but we are programmed to say “I want to avoid that”. But that’s when you do your best thinking, that’s when you do your best growing. So that requires you to be uncomfortable – whenever you go to that higher level, you are going to be uncomfortable. We are programmed that way. So I’m a big believer, whenever I’m thinking about something, if I find it too easy, if it agrees with me too much, I go, “Oh, I’m doing that lower level thinking”. So I like when I read research, I like when we’re preparing for these podcasts. I like to put myself in that uncomfortable state because I know I’m using that higher level of thinking.
Grant Holicky 22:40
That’s why he likes having me around.
Rob Pickels 22:43
Goes against everything he’s comfortable with. Yeah, I can see it.
Trevor Connor 22:48
Yep, Grant just makes me uncomfortable.
Grant Holicky 22:50
“Their smells, their sights, there’s just so much.”
Trevor Connor 22:58
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Grant Holicky 23:25
It’s backed up of like, what’s the best way to get somebody in engaging conversation about anything that they don’t agree with, which is to slow down and get them actually think instead of react because the reaction is going to be the simplest way to go there. So if I’m talking to Trevor about training, if I say, “Trevor, you’re wrong”, he’s not forced to get uncomfortable. He can just say “no, I’m right” and I can say “no, I’m right”, we walk away. But if I go, “I understand what you’re saying and I agree with this part, this part, this part, and this part, what about this -“
Trevor Connor 23:55
That makes me really uncomfortable.
Grant Holicky 23:57
So but I just think that that’s really important in everything that we do.
Trevor Connor 24:02
Yes.
Grant Holicky 24:02
I’ll take it always to that mental side of the training point of view where training is not just physical, it’s not just the number – you do the number you move on. The psychobiological model – your brain is attached.
Rob Pickels 24:14
Listen, Grant, we chose to not include you on that episode, so let’s, let’s tone down.
Chris Case 24:19
Wow.
Grant Holicky 24:20
Yeah, wow, okay…anyway –
Rob Pickels 24:24
Are you uncomfortable now?
Grant Holicky 24:25
I’m just pissed off.
Rob Pickels 24:26
Are you doing good –
Trevor Connor 24:28
He’s not comfortable at all, he just angry.
Grant Holicky 24:30
I’m just mad, just mad thinking. But no, the whole point of that is to say that your brain and your body are inexorably tied together. So when you’re sitting at an interval, or you’re sitting at a power number, it’s not just about doing that from a physical standpoint. It’s understanding how you’re going to feel when you’re doing that, being okay with feeling like that while you’re doing that, continuing to talk yourself to continue to do those things – because you don’t just go until you stop. Those pieces of the puzzle that are “how do I feel, can I keep doing this”, your brain is telling you to stop it, part of your brain is to protect your body from overdoing it so you have to override that in some contexts – so being uncomfortable, is really important because you learn how to be comfortable being uncomfortable.
Rob Pickels 25:22
Yeah, I fully agree with that. And I think that it’s discomfort that ultimately defines where our boundaries are and oftentimes, when you see someone who does not lead a life where they regularly dip into discomfort, their comfort boundaries are very, very narrow. Anything that is outside of that is a huge perturbations to what feels normal, natural and okay to that person. You know, take for example, Tucson – I’m gonna bring up Tucson as many times as I can –
Chris Case 25:51
I’m open, yeah, I’m open.
Rob Pickels 25:52
But it was – it was 70 degrees and I’m used to being in this colder environment here in Colorado, there were people riding their bike in Tucson, that had on full tights, long sleeve balaclavas at 70 degrees – their comfort window of temperature is very, very narrow based on the riding conditions that they’re typically in.
Trevor Connor 26:14
I like these people.
Grant Holicky 26:16
Meanwhile, I saw somebody yesterday in short sleeves and short shorts –
Chris Case 26:19
And it was 35?
Grant Holicky 26:20
37 out?
Rob Pickels 26:22
You know, but I think that if we take this – and at first, it’s funny to hear Trevor and Grant talking because they took it in this very different direction – where I’m taking it, Chris, and maybe you’re on the similar side of the table, literally, as I am. For me, that’s where big adventures come into this. I love kind of being in the middle of nowhere, not quite sure if I’m going to make it back on time. Not quite sure if I know how to do that. Because that puts me in a position in the rest of my life of I survived the six hour ride in the mountains where I had to hike for an hour and a half and I’m like GPS-ing my wife and telling her I’m going to be a little bit late – that makes Monday through Friday a heck of a lot easier for me, in my opinion, because I know that I have the confidence, I survive that situation. I can survive anything else that gets thrown at me.
Chris Case 27:11
This is probably going to start blending in – because I know what your question is Rob, the next question we’re going to talk about – but yes, I’m on the same page with you. The reason I asked the question about discomfort is because I think it helps you reset what you’re capable of. There’s a lot of cliches here but it’s like you can redetermine a lot of things by pushing the boundaries – where you think they are, they’re not actually boundaries, you just expand where you’re able to go, how you deal with a lot of those situations, you become comfortable being uncomfortable, you become comfortable being in a stressful place, what you have previously deemed a scary place or what have you. And that is transformative. The reason I started to mention your next question is because the line I wrote down to answer that question is – this is kind of like a personal mantra – I may not know where I’m going, but I know exactly how to get there. It’s kind of like, it doesn’t matter how lost you get – I hate to say it – but it’s about that journey. It’s about putting your – stop it.
Grant Holicky 28:20
Love it. Yeah, I hate to say it.
Chris Case 28:22
I hate to say it, I don’t know how else to say it but it has become a cliche. It’s not about the end goal necessarily, it’s about the journey. It’s about all the things that you learn about yourself – character wise, resiliency – all these things that you can only learn by putting yourself in situations that you have never experienced before. And you grow from that –
Grant Holicky 28:41
I mean, they are cliches for a reason.
Chris Case 28:42
Sure. I just am not a cliche kind of guy.
Grant Holicky 28:45
That’s fair.
Rob Pickels 28:46
So in the future, we have an episode coming out about intrinsic-extrinsic motivation and you’re the perfect example of intrinsic, but I do want to back up, Chris, to something that you said in your opening, you said “not all the time”. And I think that that’s hugely important because it also ties into the first thing we talked about today, Grant, with your question, if you are constantly uncomfortable every day of your life, that does not make forward progress, right?
Grant Holicky 29:12
Right.
Rob Pickels 29:12
Our discomfort needs to be interspaced with islands of comfort because ultimately, that’s potentially where that growth and rebuilding occurs. So I do think that people need to be careful about the dosage of this.
Trevor Connor 29:26
Well, you just made me question my life.
Chris Case 29:27
Well, well, exactly. I was about to say – I find myself unable to do normal rides very often these days, like I’ve reached a point where, and this – maybe I just need to be –
Rob Pickels 29:40
Build up your tolerance?
Chris Case 29:41
I built on my toler – well yes, absolutely, I built up my tolerance for being uncomfortable or doing quote, unquote “crazy stuff”. But going out and just riding for the sake of riding around the block to put in miles is not something I really never care to do anymore, it’s – my rides have to have themes. I have to come up with a theme for all of my rides – and a purpose – let’s, let’s bring it back to a healthier place, my rides need to have purpose.
Trevor Connor 30:07
Well, it’s interesting, because you’ve heard me say it again and again and again – there’s the dominant theory of of physiology, which is, you need to produce a training stress to see an adaptation and we are essentially talking about the mental side of that, which is “you need to cause mental discomfort in order to grow”. And this isn’t just an opinion, like I said, there’s plenty of research showing that to open up those higher levels of your brain to change your thinking, to grow your cognitions, you need to have that discomfort. That’s the the mental version of training stress. So, and Chris, I saw this in you, you did that trip to Iceland, where you tore yourself inside out, you put yourself through a lot of discomfort, but just came back and said that was transformative.
Chris Case 30:51
Absolutely. I want to do it again. I’ve been thinking about every day since I’ve been there. Those are the types of things I just –
Trevor Connor 30:58
You just love that yogurt.
Rob Pickels 31:01
You mean sour cream, right?
Trevor Connor 31:02
Yes, I do.
Chris Case 31:05
Yeah, no, that that’s exactly it. I think they’re sort of day-to-day discomfort and then there’s really big discomfort. And those are once a year for some – maybe it’s even once a lifetime, which is a shame, because they really do change you and for the better – but it’s those things that you choose to do because you’re not even sure you can do them, in the lead up, you’re getting uncomfortable, like “oh my god, what have I committed to, what have I gotten myself into”, and then that kicks off higher level thinking of “I need to do this and I need to do this and I can – “, you know, like you figure stuff out that you wouldn’t otherwise have even thought of because you didn’t need to. And then you go to this place – whether it’s Iceland circumnavigating an island or, or for some people, it’s Leadville, “I don’t know if I can even do Leadville” or some big race, some GranFondo, some event, put yourself in that situation and then day after day, hopefully, and I think this is going to prove itself time and time again, “oh, my God, I can do this”. And then you figure stuff out on the road, like “I was worried about this, I shouldn’t have been because I can tap into this and I’ve done this thing before and it applies in this way” – talking in vague terms, but it’s, all of this has the potential to change you into a better human being in a lot of ways, a stronger human being and so forth.
Grant Holicky 32:27
There’s some other psychological research that talks about people changing careers, or changing paths in their middle ages, and how much more well rounded they can be because of that. You know, I joke that I dropped everything and moved out here at one point in my life, and then I dropped everything again and changed careers again at 46 or 47 and I’m so much better for it. And so I think it’s not just in terms of athletics, but it can be in terms of big life changes, too. And I’m gonna stop –
Chris Case 32:59
That’s why Trevor and I are so – the three of us are really cool – you’ve done basically the same thing all your life, right?
Rob Pickels 33:05
No, that’s not true.
Trevor Connor 33:07
I love that Chris is like “the three of us are really cool. And you Rob….”
Chris Case 33:13
Yeah, remember, we hadn’t picked on him yet. Trying to get my jab in.
Rob Pickels 33:17
Good try Chris – we’ll have you back in 200 more episodes.
Grant Holicky 33:27
Apparently, Rob makes those decisions now. “He’s done!”
Rob Pickels 33:30
2023, guys. It’s right around the corner.
Doing Better in the New Year
Chris Case 33:33
Mm hmm.
Rob Pickels 33:34
I’m ready too because – and I don’t want this to turn into a bit of a New Year’s resolution thing – but I’m not gonna lie, everybody talks about how hard COVID years were – COVID years, I felt was pretty good for me. This year, this year has been really tough because I’ve been off my game. I haven’t been doing the things that I normally do. I haven’t been enjoying the things I normally enjoy. And so for me, I know ending this year – and Trevor, you and I have talked about this quite a bit – like I’m actively sort of trying to be engaged in making next year better for myself and that’s the question that I want to ask you guys is, whether or not you had a great year this year, I think next year can always be better. So without being too new year’s resolution-y, what are you doing? How do you make ’23 better than ’22?
Grant Holicky 34:21
So as a starting point, there’s some really good research that shows that when you pick a date to start something new that’s in the future, you have a better chance of sticking with whatever that is. Instead of just saying, “Oh, I’m gonna, I’m gonna start tomorrow”, having a date, doing whatever you want up until that date, picking that date and moving forward from that date in a different way – you have a better chance for success now. So New Year’s resolutions have a little bit of oomph to them – there’s a reason that they’ve worked that way. That’s all I really had. That’s it. I’m not changing anything.
Rob Pickels 34:56
You’re not doing any-
Grant Holicky 34:57
No, I love myself.
Trevor Connor 34:58
Whoa.
Rob Pickels 34:59
You want – do you want to reach across and give yourself a hug there?
Chris Case 35:01
We might have to phone another friend.
Grant Holicky 35:05
I already hurt my shoulder patting myself on the back.
Trevor Connor 35:08
So I gave a “hmm” on that because I am not a believer in New Year’s resolutions.
Grant Holicky 35:14
Well, I didn’t necessarily say that New Year’s is the time to do it but a an arbitrary date.
Trevor Connor 35:19
The reason being, I think if you have to wait until a date –
Rob Pickels 35:25
Oh, sure.
Trevor Connor 35:26
– to do something, you’re not taking this seriously. If you need to fix something – why wait? Do it now. But you’re saying there’s research actually saying pick a date?
Grant Holicky 35:35
Yeah, it doesn’t need to be very far in the future – you can say “on Monday, I am starting this change” – but giving yourself that opportunity to prepare for it, to almost throw a little debauchery in first, whatever that might be – “this is when I’m going to change”.There’s some research that shows that that’s beneficial.
Chris Case 35:53
Should we answer your question now, Rob?
Rob Pickels 35:55
Yeah, I think that – I’d love some insight from you guys, yeah. What do you got for us?
Chris Case 35:59
No, um… despite all the things I just said about how I don’t feel like I can take normal rides anymore and I do a lot of things that make me uncomfortable or just that are adventurous – I shouldn’t not saying every ride is meant to lead to discomfort, that’s far from the truth – but I mean, I basically I’ve already given my answer. Like 2021, my circumnavigation of Iceland was just incredible for so many reasons. I don’t need to, but I can list them –
Rob Pickels 36:28
But it’d be boring.
Chris Case 36:29
It’d be boring, I want to do something like that in 2023, I want to get back to a place – I want to commit to something that does what I explained Iceland, like it puts me in a place where I’m unsure that I can do it. I have to figure some things out. It might also have a gear aspect to it, like what are the things that I don’t currently own but I need to do some research and figure out like this “it needs to be light, it needs to keep me dry, it needs” – you know, something technical in that sense. I think that is, for me, that’s an interesting aspect of this stuff, too. And so, I don’t know what it’s going to be yet, I don’t know where I’m going to go – 2023 is shaping up to be a very busy year for me in terms of what I’m doing now professionally, the amount of trips in cycling adventures that I might do, but somewhere in there, I’m going to make time for myself to do something big, kind of scary, and very challenging.
Trevor Connor 37:29
So Rob, let’s throw it to you. What are you going to change for 2023?
Rob Pickels 37:33
You know, for me, I’m somebody who – gosh, I live in the moment and that’s really great a lot of the time – but sometimes when I’m only dealing with my immediate needs, it prevents me from long term happiness or long term success and that’s a lot of what happened this year. I didn’t take that step back from living in the moment to plan something for the future. And every time I did try to get around to that, something came up. “Oh, I can’t do this thing because, oh, my wife is traveling” or “I’m not sure what’s happening with this so I’m afraid to commit to doing something else” – and 2022 passed me by, like I look back, and I didn’t have a big adventure. I didn’t do anything that put me outside of my box. And for ’23 I think I’ve already probably over-scheduled myself because of it –
Chris Case 38:27
To make up for it?
Rob Pickels 38:28
Exactly! I’m doing a 24-hour mountain bike race in February.
Chris Case 38:32
Wow, those still exist, huh?
Rob Pickels 38:33
They do still exist – I’m doing with the team but I do love mountain biking at night, so I’m doing with the team. Let’s see – I also I signed up for Finland Gravel.
Chris Case 38:40
Oh yeah?
Rob Pickels 38:41
I recommitted to TransPortugal mountain bike race – now I’m actually, I’m feeling very uncomfortable about all of this looking at next year because I have like four gigantic events on the calendar. I’m interested see how I make it through all of this. But I will say I am very much looking forward because I’m in that phase right now, Chris, where I’m planning, TransPortugal mountain bike race – what tires should I run? I need to test – I have a dozen tires that I want to test to see which are going to be the best – I love that stuff –
Chris Case 39:12
Yeah.
Rob Pickels 39:12
But it has really reinvigorated a lot of the things that I enjoy about life and about cycling – screw you Grant.
Grant Holicky 39:19
No, I’m laughing because you guys are just so different than me.
Chris Case 39:22
Well…in what way?
Rob Pickels 39:24
We’re better than him.
Grant Holicky 39:27
You’re not wrong, but I’m, I’m turning 50 next year, so I want to do something – like I was gonna go run the Rut, but I don’t think I can run the Rut because I think it’s during the first –
Chris Case 39:37
What’s “run the Rut” for those who don’t know?
Grant Holicky 39:39
The Rut is a 50k running race in Big Sky, Montana, that goes up and down the mountain about four times – it’s miserable, right up my alley. But I really wanted to go do this because it’s something that I don’t do – I don’t enjoy running, typically.
Chris Case 39:55
Bowling balls don’t normally like running
Rob Pickels 39:57
But they do roll downhill.
Chris Case 39:58
They do, they do.
Grant Holicky 39:59
Yeah, they do – so I wanted to go do something that takes me, as you guys said, completely out of my comfort zone, go do something completely different and I’ve done a lot of the bike stuff, so I wanted to do that. But it doesn’t line up – but I’m laughing because my approach to doing it would be to just show up on the day and do it right? Like “these shoes will work, I’ll probably be fine”. I mean, I train but you know, I – I don’t – that’s not what I enjoy about those things. I don’t enjoy the planning. I’m like “eugh, I’ll just go do it” –
Rob Pickels 40:31
Yep.
Grant Holicky 40:31
But that’s why I was laughing – I’m not laughing at what you’re doing. I’m sitting here like, “Dude, that’s rad, I wish I could do those things”. What are you doing in the future, Chris?
Chris Case 40:40
So, I have a company now. It’s called Alter Exploration and it is meant to create opportunities for people to do these things that we’re talking about – get uncomfortable, challenge themselves, ride gravel, pavement – whatever, everything in between those two ends of the spectrum – on bikes in incredible places. The Dolomites, Iceland, the Piedmont Alps where there’s some fantastic gravel, high above the most famous climbs you’ve heard of that get used in the Giro, like the Finestre, there’s stuff built by Napoleon because this area was fought over for years between France and Italy – incredible gravel there, Switzerland and other places, Colorado, of course, I just didn’t want to come on and be a salesperson but that’s exactly what I’m doing is trying to offer these types of experiences to other people, because I think they are extremely beneficial, they are transformative, fill in all those cliches, but they’re cliches for a reason because they are awesome, they will change your life for the better. And that’s what I want to do – help people do that. But to – the other thing that I was going to say, sort of ties together three things that we were all saying – first of all, I said I want to do something big next year, but I haven’t chosen it yet, which I think goes to your two points, which is, you were sort of saying different things but let me try to tie this together, the picking of a date is important. I don’t know what I’m going to be doing so if I weren’t in Rob’s position of having too many things, I could just be like, “well, I said I was going to do this big thing but I never really chose the thing and now this other thing came up” and you’re not really committed to it, you haven’t put down a bunch of money or whatever, or you haven’t signed your name to the registration and then it’s easy to just be like “I’ll do it next year” or you put it off or something else comes up –
Rob Pickels 42:36
That sounds like that – that was my – that was the whole year for me, yeah.
Chris Case 42:39
And what you’re saying, in some senses, is pick a date and commit to itbecause that ties you to that thing and it helps you get to that place.
Grant Holicky 42:47
It prepares you and inspires you and all –
Chris Case 42:49
Right, so what I’m saying – I’m admitting to the fact that I need to pick what it is that that big thing is going to be for me next year and then I will be in your shoes, like geeking out on the equipment, the root, the this, the that, maybe finding somebody to call up and say, “Hey, I don’t know you but will you join me for this adventure because I need to make sure I come back alive” – sort of thing, so….yeah.
Grant Holicky 43:12
Trevor.
Rob Pickels 43:14
’23.
Grant Holicky 43:15
’23.
Chris Case 43:16
Don’t say “I’m gonna do a tour of Tobago again” because you’ve done that enough – not, I’m not saying you can’t do it again but this has to be something different.
Grant Holicky 43:25
We’re watching out for your wallet.
Trevor Connor 43:26
I am doing it again but I’ve given my opinion on the whole New Year thing and that’s just –
Chris Case 43:31
No, this is –
Grant Holicky 43:32
You’re just out.
Chris Case 43:33
This isn’t necessarily, well, I won’t – it’s your question –
Rob Pickels 43:36
No, you do your thing.
Chris Case 43:37
I don’t want you to think of it as a New Year’s resolution whatsoever –
Rob Pickels 43:40
That I want to avoid, yeah.
Chris Case 43:41
I want you to tell us, have you thought about what’s on that list? Like what’s your – to plug of another Fast Talk thing – what’s your N1 challenge for 2023?
Trevor Connor 43:51
Well, I actually don’t have an answer.
Chris Case 43:53
Flop.
Trevor Connor 43:53
Honestly, don’t, so…
Rob Pickels 43:55
“That was another episode of Fast Talk” (laughs).
Grant Holicky 43:59
Womp, womp, womp.
Trevor Connor 44:00
I kind of get the feel for my next season in November – so that’s when I get back on the bike and get back to train and there are years where I can’t wait to get back on the bike, I’m excited, I’m motivated, and get right into the training and go “oh boy, I was off too long and I’m just excited to be here”. I have other seasons where I get back on the bike and I’m like, “this is just work”.
Chris Case 44:22
Mmm, and you’re at that place right now?
Trevor Connor 44:24
And this year has definitely been that, you know, I’m doing the training, I’m following the plan, but there’s nothing I’m going “oh boy, I’m excited, I’m getting ready for this” – it’s not there right now.
Chris Case 44:35
Can I make some suggestions?
Trevor Connor 44:37
Absolutely.
Chris Case 44:39
Some of these would be hard to get into but I think you are built -assuming your back is ready for something like this, but you should do a big gravel race.
Rob Pickels 44:47
I’d love to see Trevor do a big gravel race.
Chris Case 44:49
You’re built for it.
Trevor Connor 44:50
Yeah, no, I should have been doing gravel racing from the start – that’s kind of the type of race in that, as you said, I’m more fitted to and I haven’t been doing them and I’d like to so I will probably sign up for one or two this year, but –
Rob Pickels 45:03
We’re gonna help you get your mojo back.
Grant Holicky 45:04
Don’t do Big Horn.
Trevor Connor 45:07
Why’s that?
Grant Holicky 45:08
Cause those downhills – your back would light up about halfway through it –
Trevor Connor 45:11
My back –
Grant Holicky 45:12
You’d be on the ground.
Trevor Connor 45:13
My back is fine. That – that is well, well behind me.
Grant Holicky 45:17
Tie your shoes, right, you’ll be fine!
Trevor Connor 45:21
So yeah, no, I honestly haven’t thought about what I’m going to do in 2023.
Rob Pickels 45:26
And but that – it doesn’t even have to be about what you’re going to do in terms of events. For you, ’23 might be about reevaluating cycling or reevaluating –
Chris Case 45:37
That’s very true.
Rob Pickels 45:37
– how you interact with the sport, that maybe you say ‘I’m done with my road bike, I want to become a downhill mountain biker” – I don’t care, that wasn’t my, that wasn’t “what are you gonna do” sort of situation – it can be a much bigger philosophical question.
Grant Holicky 45:52
Well, I think, I think the big philosophical questions are important. I think that taking that chance to look at what you have been doing and take an objective look at that and going okay, “am I happy with that? Would I like to change that?”
Rob Pickels 46:06
Exactly.
Grant Holicky 46:07
You know, I wasn’t totally kidding when I said, “No, I really dig what 2022 was”, I made some changes during this time –
Rob Pickels 46:13
That’s good, that’s good.
Grant Holicky 46:14
We really – I really enjoyed what that was, I mean, I feel like I travel a little too much for cyclocross, but I don’t know that I can avoid that and it’s probably not going away but – kind of dug it – and almost what, what I came to, personally from a racing standpoint or any of those things, I’ve long ago came to this realization that the fittest I will be all year is March.
Rob Pickels 46:38
Yeah, it happens to me, too.
Grant Holicky 46:40
I don’t know why, right, like I’m indoors, I’m in a groove, I’m in a pattern, all that stuff works. Summer comes in, we start traveling, we’re all over the place, and we’re doing this and that and then I get in the cross season, maybe I’m fit when crossed starts. By like the sixth week cross, I’m a pile up.
Rob Pickels 46:57
Yep.
Grant Holicky 46:57
Quivering in jello – I’m just exhausted from running the team and work in the pits and doing those things so like, yeah, I want to pick something early on the year and see if I can actually use that fitness so instead of –
Chris Case 47:10
When do you turn 50?
Grant Holicky 47:12
June.
Chris Case 47:13
Okay.
Grant Holicky 47:14
So instead of lamenting that I’m always super – I’m race age 50 – so instead of lamenting that I, you know, “oh, I’m always fit in March, and it’s never useful”, I think I need to find something to make it useful. Right.
Rob Pickels 47:28
Right and that’s – we do that in training “Oh, I had a great training season” – you’re not going to do the exact same things you did before, you’re gonna find ways to improve upon that – well, you don’t put much thought into training. Yeah, well, and that’s my challenge to you – ’22 was great and that’s perfect, I’m super happy to hear that. But that doesn’t mean you can’t do something to make ’23 better.
Grant Holicky 47:47
No, I put a lot of thought into training – I’m gonna, I’m gonna jump on this – I actually think that was, is one of the biggest mistakes that people make in training across the board: “That was great. Now I need to do more.”
Rob Pickels 48:01
No, I didn’t say more. Replicate it.
Grant Holicky 48:03
Now I need to do something different – keep doing what you’re doing. You’ll keep getting better.
Rob Pickels 48:10
You’ll keep getting better.
Trevor Connor 48:12
So if you haven’t picked up on this, the potlucks serve two purposes. One – make sure I never go on a date again – And two, make sure Grant never gets an athlete again as a coach.
Chris Case 48:21
Yeah. Right (laughs), “I don’t think about coaching whatsoever, I am a basket case – come to me”.
Trevor Connor 48:31
Planning? What do you plan?
Grant Holicky 48:32
I never said I was a basket case.
Chris Case 48:35
Well –
Grant Holicky 48:35
I didn’t –
Chris Case 48:37
You didn’t have to say it.
Grant Holicky 48:39
Anyway, anyway – and maybe this is why I don’t –
Trevor Connor 48:43
What is it about your life that we’re destroying with the potlucks?
Rob Pickels 48:47
Nothing, I try to make my life better with every potluck.
Chris Case 48:51
He’s smiling.
Grant Holicky 48:52
Yeah.
Chris Case 48:52
He’s gonna have some maniacal laughs when he listens back to that part.
Grant Holicky 48:59
There’s so much that we’re gonna cut from this.
Julie Young 49:06
Hi, listeners. It’s Julie Young!
Dede Barry 49:08
-and Dede Barry.
Julie Young 49:10
We’ve had a fantastic time recording a special podcast series that’s all about performance, nutrition, youth athletic development, training, and physiology for the female endurance athlete.
Dede Barry 49:21
We’re excited to share our knowledge and tap into leading experts like Dr. Dana Lis, Jenn Sygo, Dr. Emily Kraus, and Katherine Cram. Fast Talk FEM is coming this January, and we can’t wait to share it with the Fast Talk Labs community.
Chris Case 49:42
That was another episode of Fast Talk. Subscribe to Fast Talk wherever you prefer to find your favorite podcast and be sure to leave us a rating and review. The thoughts and opinions expressed on Fast Talk are those of the individual. As always, we love your feedback during the conversation at forums.fasttalklabs.com to discuss each and every episode. Become a member of Fast Talk Laboratories at fasttalklabs.com/join. Become a part of our education and coaching community. For Grant Holicky, Trevor Connor, and Rob Pickels, I’m Chris Case. Thanks for listening!
