In this episode we explore the science of caffeine in endurance sports—when it helps, when it doesn’t, and how to use it wisely.
Episode Transcript
Griffin McMath 00:05
Dr, hello and welcome to fast talk. Your source for the science of endurance performance, I’m your host. Dr, Griffin McMath, and today we’re diving into one of the most widely used and widely misunderstood performance aids and endurance sport caffeine. Now, whether it’s a morning ritual, a mid ride pick me up, or a last ditch energy boost on race day, caffeine has become deeply embedded in the culture of athletes at every level. But here’s the catch. Just because it’s common doesn’t mean we’re always using it effectively or wisely. So today, we’re asking, Does caffeine really help or hurt performance. What are the trade offs when it comes to sleep, recovery and long term adaptation, and how much is too much to unpack the science and the strategy. I’m joined by Dr Jeff sankoff, emergency physician, triathlete coach and the host of the tri doc podcast. We’ll explore how caffeine works, how to time it, how to spot when it’s backfiring and when it might just give you the edge you do need along the way. We’ll hear from longtime endurance journalist Brad Kulp, sports scientist Dr Paul Larson, and a few caffeine confessions of our own. So pour your espresso or prep your green tea, and let’s make you fast
Trevor Connor 01:24
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Griffin McMath 01:45
Thank you so much for joining me today. Jeff Griffin,
Jeff Sankoff 01:48
it’s always a pleasure to be here. You know how much I enjoy being a part of the fast talk family, and especially when I get to spend time with you. So no problem at
Griffin McMath 01:58
all. I love that. And for those who aren’t obviously on this recording right now. Jeff is helping me out because some of the research that intended to talk about today, we actually were able to contact the researchers out in Turkey and Australia, and I’ve been talking with them for a while now, and just so many scheduling snafus, and Jeff was able to step in last minute with his expertise. And I’m so excited, but knowing that he’s helping me out, his name on the recording says, Try doc, aka Griffin’s hero, and it’s so true. So thanks for being my hero once again today. So before we dig in Jeff, I thought we would bring in a voice that many of our listeners know. So Brad Kulp, long time sports journalist, endurance athlete, and author of a fascinating book on Norwegian method. We actually had a chance to ask him about caffeine somewhat recently, and so here he is reflecting on just how deeply caffeine is woven into the daily rituals of top athletes.
Brad Culp 02:57
Yeah, I’ll kind of take a Norwegian approach on that, and just Christian’s obviously the one athlete that had been around a bit and have seen his training. Caffeine is a huge part of it. I’ve spent the last 20 years around a lot of the best athletes in the world. Is very rare that I will seize one that doesn’t consume an extraordinary level of caffeine. Jan Frodeno is another great example. I mean, he has his own coffee company. I’ve never been around that guy where he doesn’t have a cup of coffee. Coffee is such a huge part of endurance sports, as you know, and I’m sure that’s why you’ve got a whole episode about it. It’s a something that I’ve used my entire going back to I started drinking coffee when I started morning swim sessions at like 13 or 14. I’ve been drinking it my whole life. Had a very unhealthy relationship with caffeine for most of my 20s, and I think that’s probably where a lot of higher performing athletes might be consuming way too much, and it often comes with a lot of sugar, and yeah, that can cause other metabolic issues. Think that there’s certainly a place for it. I would never, I swim every morning. I would never, ever get in the pool without a cup of coffee. I never will. I will never consider it. It seems insane. I just wouldn’t go to the pool if I didn’t have coffee. But I have gotten rid of gotten rid of now I drink, I have a big vat of green tea in the afternoon, and there’s other health benefits with that. That’s why I tend to switch to the tea. But anyone drinking coffee later than like two or three. I don’t know the science as well as others you’ll have on but there’s certainly to put a Norwegian spin on it. There’s certainly more cost and benefit there, I would think,
Griffin McMath 04:23
okay, so caffeine is clearly embedded in the culture of endurance sport, but just because it’s common doesn’t mean it’s always optimal. So today, we’re taking a closer look at how athletes can use caffeine more strategically and avoid the unintended consequences. So Jeff, can we start with the basics here. What are the common habits you actually see with athletes, both elite amateur when it comes to caffeine use?
Jeff Sankoff 04:49
Oh my gosh. I mean, coffee is okay. First of all, caffeine needs to be parsed out as caffeine itself. And then where, how we get our caffeine right? I mean, I think. That in North America and in the Western world, well, gosh, around the world in general, coffee is one of the top selling beverages. Tea is used to be tea was, obviously, for the British Empire, was a huge source of income. It was a crop that led to colonization of all kinds of different continents and coffee now today, I mean, we have coffee rides. We have bicycle shops that have coffee shops in them. Coffee is very much a part of the certainly cyclist culture, and I would say athletic culture as well. And that has only become a bigger kind of facet of athletic endeavors, when you consider so much research that has come out over the last, I don’t know, a couple of decades that has shown that caffeine, really the active ingredient in coffee, does have pretty significant impact on performance, both in terms of endurance performance And also things like strength, short, high intensity types of activity. So caffeine has been shown repeatedly to have beneficial effects on athletic performance. And so as athletes have become aware of that, they’ve incorporated caffeine even more. And so caffeine is definitely a big part of our culture and a big part of athletes cultures. And I see athletes drinking coffee routinely, but I don’t think they’re drinking coffee necessarily just for the caffeine. I mean, I love my coffee. I know you do as well. We’ve had these conversations, and the reality is that coffee, there’s a ton of research that shows that coffee has incredible health benefits. There was a study that came out in the last five years, I think that looked at Italians, Italians who drank coffee versus those who didn’t, and Italians who drank coffee had all kinds of measures of improved health and mortality, and it had nothing to do with the caffeine, because even drinking decaffeinated coffee had this kind of impact. So there’s a lot of reasons to enjoy your however you get your caffeine. But if you are going to get your caffeine, and we’re, I know we’re going to come to this a little bit later, you’re definitely better off doing so through the wonders of coffee. Hopefully you are a coffee liker.
Griffin McMath 07:14
We have to keep looking to the Italians. They know how to do fashion, they know how to do coffee. And honestly, if my body could process pasta, damn, they know what they’re doing there, too. And I love that you started this whole thing off by saying, hey, let’s pause, because when we talk about caffeine, people are going to think of coffee without recognizing that we might be getting it through tea. And then people who are looking at getting caffeine through a supplement form, whether that’s some type of encapsulated in a mix, in a powder, whatever that may be. And I think it’s kind of poetic you talk about this really romanticized culture of cycling, where people meet up partway through a ride at coffee shops. And that’s a thing, right? And I can think of actual coffee shops that are split bike and coffee shops out along the East Coast too, and how much of that culture is, and then at what point were people like? But you know what, I could just skip right to the good stuff and, like, really get in there. And for some reason I just want to, like, say that’s such an American thing, and be like, I can go even harder if I just extract the caffeine while the Italians are sipping their espresso very differently. What do you think we can attribute that to that kind of shift?
Jeff Sankoff 08:25
Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, you’re right. There’s the supplement culture amongst endurance athletes, and that has really taken off in the last decade or so. I mean, the supplement industry is worth billions. I think I can’t remember the last time I looked and that’s not unique just to athletics. There’s obviously a whole reams of different ways to get supplements and reasons for it, but caffeine, very early on, was inserted into almost everything, and then you could actually buy caffeine on its own. And again, it’s because there’s this evidence that is out there that shows that caffeine benefits performance and people, and it’s illegal, and so people are always looking for ways to get a boost in their performance, and that is a legal boost. And so people are just finding it wherever they can and taking it. I think that’s excessive. In fact, there’s a lot of evidence that shows that you don’t need that much, and you have to be careful, because there is a tipping point where it stops being beneficial and starts giving you untoward effects, which we’ll get into, yeah, yeah. And so I don’t know what the tipping point was or but I think it’s really unfortunate that we see such a supplement culture, because every time I talk to people on my show, it’s always about, well, how many supplements are you taking, and which ones are the ones that you really think are important? And in reality, there’s really not that many. Caffeine definitely is one of them that is beneficial, but you don’t need to be taking that much. And honestly, it’s not so much that caffeine is giving you a boost. It’s that if you’re not. Taking it, you’re not getting the same boost as everybody else is, because we know that over 90% of athletes are getting caffeine somehow. So if you are staying away from caffeine, then you’re just missing that 2% boost that everybody else is getting. So that’s what it boils down to. And
Griffin McMath 10:16
to your point, caffeine is a legal drug. Other drugs are regulated in a much different way. Caffeine is instantaneously noticeable. It has such an immediate impact on our body and such an exaggerated impact when we have let’s call it as an overdose, right? An over what your body can’t necessarily handle appropriately. We can go buck wild with the caffeine, and there’s somehow a norm around it. So we’ve talked about the high prevalence of morning use. Can you talk about any kind of pre race rituals here our common stacking that we might notice with coffee and energy gels or drinks?
Jeff Sankoff 10:53
Yeah, and just going back to the legality for a second. Wada did look at it? Because when you find a substance that you know, has a performance enhancing effect, then that immediately is going to raise those alarm bells. And Walter looked at it, but it was just impractical to make this an illegal substance, because everybody’s using it, and it’s in so many foods that they just kind of say, Look, we know this does what it does, but everybody’s using it, so we’re not going to crack down on it, and there is a plateau. Once you get to a certain amount, you’re not really getting any more effect. And so they have acknowledged that, and they said, that’s why we’re just going to let this stick in terms of the rituals. Yeah, I think that most people take their caffeine when they get up, but that’s the way it goes. And then we know that the half life of caffeine varies between genders. Women tend to have a longer lasting effect of caffeine in their body because they break it down more slowly. And then there are other various things that can cause it to be metabolized quicker or slower. But for the most part, no age is the other one. The older you are, the longer it sticks around. Those are the two things you can’t control. But then there are some other stuff. But most people will say, if you’re in a long event, then you can start thinking about taking caffeinated gels, or some kind of caffeinated substance after several hours, and then start taking that every couple of hours. But you do have to be careful, because a lot of these gels have so much caffeine. Morton gels, which are the most, the ones that came out. I don’t know if they were the first, but they were kind of the first, really aggressively marketed as being caffeinated. And there are 100 milligrams of caffeine, and it’s a reasonable dose of caffeine. When we talk about a caffeine dose, we’re usually talking about one to two milligrams per kilogram. So 100 milligrams is a pretty good dose.
Griffin McMath 12:38
Pretty solid there. I love that like a misconception around more equals better, acknowledging that there is a plateau, acknowledging that some people also have that paradoxical effect with coffee, right? And then understanding that, depending on your demographic, you may be responding to this a little bit differently. It might be more difficult for your body to process caffeine. And
Jeff Sankoff 13:00
that’s important, because the big thing is people who take too much when they’re racing because caffeine, the side effects are really gastrointestinal and then just nervous system, where you start getting really agitated and jittery, and that’s not a comfortable feeling, and it’s not beneficial when you’re trying to keep your heart rate down or keep your sort of race pace and everything else under control, and your heart rate is just shooting up through the roof because caffeine has that effect on the heart. Then all of a sudden you’re getting the gastrointestinal effects that nobody wants to have when they’re out on the bike or the run. Well,
Griffin McMath 13:32
yeah. And then on top of that, while we’re just talking about effects, here we have withdrawal patterns or rebound fatigue right during these caffeine resets. So you might be powering through these pre race rituals, or kind of this lead up to an event where you’re doing that, and then the event might be over, and you might think, Oh, I just don’t need to be doing this as much with caffeine. And your body goes, Hey, now we had a good thing going. What are you doing? So can you talk a little bit about withdrawal patterns and rebound fatigue? Yeah.
Jeff Sankoff 13:59
So that’s really interesting. There. The literature on that is kind of all over the place, whether or not there’s true, because in order to have withdrawal, you have to have tolerance, and then you have to because those are some of the things that we look for when we talk about addiction. So nicotine, and, of course, some of the more abusive drugs, like heroin and all those things. They are addictive because you become tolerant to them. You have to have more and higher doses in order to satisfy a craving, and if you take those drugs away, you get very severe physiologic symptoms of withdrawal. And for a long time, there was this thought that the same thing was happening with caffeine, but it’s not 100% clear that really is happening. There seems to be more of a psychological tolerance and withdrawal from caffeine, but not so much a physical withdrawal from caffeine, even though people so again, it seems to be a psychological thing. But again, there is literature out there that suggests that it’s real like a physical and then there’s some evidence that says we’re not so sure. So it’s not 100% Sent one way or the other. There’s no question some people have very real symptoms when they stop taking caffeine, and then others, like I will occasionally just not have access to caffeine or whatever. I don’t get any symptoms. And I know that there are a lot of people who are in a similar boat. It’s a little bit all over the place, and that’s why the medical literature on this is also a little bit all over the place, but there’s no question it is not the same kind of receptor based tolerance and withdrawal that you see with nicotine or these other drugs of dependence. It seems to be a different kind of pathway love
Griffin McMath 15:38
that Dave in marketing for fast talk Labs is going to have a fit when I tell him, Hey, Jeff says it might be all in your head, because he has one of the best caffeine quote, unquote withdrawal stories I’ve ever heard from when he started up college. So I will send him this episode when it’s done, and say, Listen, dr, senkoff says it was all in your head.
Jeff Sankoff 15:59
Well, again, I think that I’m not diminishing the very real symptoms that a lot of people do get when they stop drinking caffeine. All I am saying is it’s not by the same kinds of pathways that we could say it’s definitively a physical withdrawal that we see with other drugs. We don’t know why it is that some people get those symptoms. It’s just not technically the physical withdrawal, so we don’t know.
Griffin McMath 16:24
So if you tend to experience symptoms after abstaining from caffeine, after a period where you’ve been consuming it with regularity or a high volume, the symptoms you might be experiencing aren’t the same experiences that we associate with a concept with withdrawal and we think of other substances. But that doesn’t mean that your symptoms are like I just joked all in your head. They are very real, and those symptoms might be either like you none wishes you have been blessed. They could be headaches and rebound fatigue. Are there any others that you’ve noticed? Those
Jeff Sankoff 16:59
are the ones that I’m familiar with and that I’ve heard about. I am not familiar with any others. I think the most common one is the headache and the fatigue.
Griffin McMath 17:07
Yeah, I have to tell you, as an emergency medicine physician, actually, this just popped in my mind. There is the sweetest, coolest, raddest emergency medicine physician, besides you on Instagram who talked about a story of a patient who came in was an excruciating had the worst headache. They did all these things and they couldn’t figure out what’s going on, to the point where they did a spinal tap on this man, and they’re like, What is going on? And he had been recently sick, and this emergency medicine physician came up to him at one point and said, What do you usually eat and drink during the day? And a Mountain Dew and another Mountain Dew, another Mountain Dew and another mountain dew. And she goes, while you were sick, did you not have Mountain Dews for a few days? And mind you, they’ve been giving this man every pain med under the sun, and nothing’s cracking the surface of the pain. And he goes, Nope, didn’t have it. And she just has this big light bulb moment, goes down to the cafeteria, buys this man the soda, or pop, because I’m from Detroit, brings him up. The pop, has him drink it. She comes back in an hour, and the pain’s gone. And I just think that’s so wild. It might not be the same thing as a drug withdrawal that we’re like we’re talking about, but that concept, I mean, come on,
Jeff Sankoff 18:24
I’m certainly not familiar with people having that severe of a headache. But I mean, given that the person was just sick and had other things going on, certainly it could complicate it, and there’s other issues there too. So isn’t that a good story, though? It’s a good story.
Griffin McMath 18:40
Well, let’s move away from Mountain Dew, and I think briefly, one thing that we should do is let’s talk about sleep while we’re talking about rebound fatigue. This is where caffeine benefits can start to have trade offs, right? So one of the more eye opening studies we reviewed found no
Jeff Sankoff 18:58
pun intended, right? Exactly. Found that
Griffin McMath 19:02
140 milligrams of caffeine taken at 6pm significantly impaired sleep onset, reduced deep sleep quality, elevated heart rate throughout the night. Let’s talk a little bit here about the connection between caffeine and sleep. And you touched on it a little bit already, but let’s really cater this to the athlete.
Jeff Sankoff 19:20
Yeah, look, it’s a stimulant. It causes changes within the CNS, the central nervous system. It causes changes within the cardiovascular system, and those changes are propagated by hormonal changes as well as just the caffeine itself has actions on receptors within the heart and within the brain, and as a consequence of that, it can definitely interfere with sleep, no question, it also has some interference with the balance between sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system, which is really important for good quality sleep. Now, again, I think it’s important to say that there is. Individuality here, my wife can’t take a cup of coffee after 3pm and be able to fall asleep. I can have cappuccino after dinner and fall asleep, no problem. So I think that, again, there is just this different people will respond to caffeine very differently, and there is no hard and fast rule, with that being said across a population, as you will see in these studies, which is what these studies will record, is yes, in general, most people will have that kind of response, where, if they drink coffee and 140 milligrams, that’s probably two espressos or two cups of coffee, that’s quite a fair amount of caffeine. That amount of caffeine, I could definitely see is like a good wake up call. Literally, it’s gonna cause people to stay awake. And we know how vital and important it is to get sleep in order to recover, especially if you’ve had a hard training day. I
Griffin McMath 20:56
was gonna say this is, in my opinion, more pronounced in endurance athletes, because their need for quality sleep, for that parasympathetic recovery state is much higher than the general population. So I think the thing that I’m really interested to is you may not be showing symptoms of still being alert, but is your quality of sleep actually in recovery impacted something you may not notice, because unlike your wife, you may fall asleep just fine, but the quality and what the actual state of recovery, I think, is a really interesting area. So we’re talking about delayed sleep onset. We’re talking about impaired overnight recovery, obviously potential downstream effects on performance the next day, and also, as the research can show lower HRV for those HRV nerds, of course, caffeine effect on sleep and circadian rhythm is one of the most important considerations for endurance athletes, especially when it comes to recovery. So we asked Dr Paul Larson to weigh in on that balance between performance and rest. Here’s what he had to say,
Dr. Paul Laursen 22:00
caffeine is a great tool to use in the context of both daily living as well as with your exercise performance. My bias is I certainly enjoy my cup of coffee in the morning. But like everything, like every tool, can have two edges, and I think the data is becoming pretty clear that you want to stop using your caffeine, I think, around noon to 2pm in your day, to protect, ultimately, your circadian rhythm. I think the data, it’s variable, depending on various different factors and genetics I hear as well, but it can certainly disrupt sleep quality, deep sleep, I believe, specifically, which is vital for your recovery as an athlete. So yeah, I think if used correctly, it can be a great stimulant drive arousal and performance, but be careful with any exposure to it past noon.
Griffin McMath 23:00
So as Dr Paul Larson had mentioned, that nuance caffeine is both a performance enhancer and a potential recovery disruptor is really at the heart of this discussion. So Jeff, back to you. I’d love for you to unpack some of the mechanisms that Paul touches on you did a little bit earlier but more into that half life, the timing and any other considerations athletes need to understand about that impact if they’re trying to navigate does this impact me and what can I do to mitigate this? Well,
Jeff Sankoff 23:29
I think we need to step back a little bit and see the forest for the trees, because you can really get kind of twisted up into knots about, Oh, should I have that coffee? Because, oh my goodness, it’s gonna cause me problems. I’m not gonna be able to get my full night’s rest and not be able to perform on that bike ride tomorrow, et cetera, et cetera. But you’re out, it’s 4pm and you’re sitting at a coffee shop because you had an arrangement to meet up with a friend, and you really want to enjoy that cup of coffee, because you’re just so looking forward to it. I mean, we’re talking about kind of around the edges here, at the end of the day, you have to make some choices. And I mean, we’re not if you’re drinking coffee every single day, late in the day, and it’s affecting your sleep, then obviously that’s something you could change in order to improve your sleep hygiene, right? Sleep hygiene is something you always want to be looking for ways to improve your ability to get sleep. And if you’re finding you have difficulties with falling asleep or staying asleep, then sure restrict your caffeine intake late in the day. But if you’re one of those people who just really enjoys that coffee, and it’s not really having a major impact on your sleep, and you’re not noticing personally, any major issues with your recovery. Enjoy Have at it. Don’t worry about it. Now, if you’re one of those people who finds you wake up in the morning you’re tired because you didn’t get a good night’s sleep, and you find you’re really not recovered to go out and execute in the in your workouts and yeah, sure. Start analyzing what it is, what kinds of things. Things you’re doing in your life that you could maybe change to improve your recovery. And if I like, I said, one of them is that you’re drinking coffee late in the day. Maybe cut that out for a week and see how your sleep goes, see how your recovery feels. I think that we can, as athletes, we’re always we’re so tied up with like measuring everything we do, and with paying so much attention to what every pro does, and I think we need to remember we’re just age groupers. We train and we race because we love to do it, but it’s still just a part of our life, and we have to enjoy all of our life.
Griffin McMath 25:31
I love that you talk about sleep hygiene, that’s one area that is always especially when I was actively seeing patients, I used to have a joke with my family that to the best skills I had in patient care were getting people to sleep and getting people to poop. And honestly, you don’t want to be the patient that comes in with either two of those problems. You’re not a happy camper, but they’d always leave a happy camper. So
Jeff Sankoff 25:56
you’d put the sleep and have them poop in your office. That’s actually,
Griffin McMath 25:59
as I said, that I was like, this could really be interpreted the wrong way here. They’ll call me later, is really what happened. But
Jeff Sankoff 26:05
my son’s favorite episode was your story of, oh my God, here,
Griffin McMath 26:10
I tell ya, I still to this day, that is one of the best ways to train, I think, or to like, see what you’re really capable of is find yourself far away from the bathroom and watch how fast you sprint, you’ll go from like a this was supposed to be a long run, to like, No, we’re doing sprints today, folks, real quick. But yeah, so sleep hygiene, I think, is such a great topic. Obviously, it’s adjacent to this. But part of having great sleep hygiene, generally, regardless of how you think you process caffeine or coffee is to avoid stimulants across the board after a certain point of the day. And most, I would say, standard that we’ve done in lifestyle and preventative medicine, depending on the person, has been either noon or 2pm and to your point that you mentioned earlier, for females, often time, we would say, for you, let’s keep it closer to noon. And for a lot of men, and the men like you, who are like, Oh, I can have a cappuccino after dinner, which I’m so envious of, it will be like, Yeah, you’re probably fine at 2pm but maybe cap it there. So I think that’s such great advice, talking about the half life we’ve talked a little bit about. Obviously, there’s genetic component, whether you’re a fast or slow metabolizer, and then also understanding, like we said, the variability and clearance. I forgot we didn’t. We talked a little bit about that. And then I think it’s important for athletes to be able to spot red flags. Maybe you don’t understand what your relationship with caffeine is, or caffeine relationship with you. If someone’s experiencing restlessness, maybe they’re starting to wake early, well before their alarm. Any delayed onset with caffeine where you’re not noticing the impact, so you’re compensating by having a ton of caffeine and then waiting. I think those are also red flags athletes can keep an eye out for.
Jeff Sankoff 27:55
Yeah, and I also think we need to remember that like I said earlier, caffeine is found in so many places that we don’t necessarily think about chocolate right, there’s quite a bit of caffeine in chocolate, not unfortunately. I’m not going to say unfortunately, but we need to remember it’s there. And then, of course, those energy drinks are not just caffeine. They have some other bioactive agents in them, and they some of those energy drinks are have been associated with dysrhythmias and all kinds of issues, so people just need to be careful where they’re getting their caffeine and just be conscious of the fact that they’re getting it in all these different areas. Yeah,
Griffin McMath 28:32
I think it’s really interesting being part of a generation where I think my late teens and then early 20s, a lot of those energy drinks that just became smaller, or they even started to be paired along with alcohol, right? So five hour energy drinks, monster drinks, my generation grew up with that in their teens, or my age into their early 20s, and then Four Loko came out. And I can’t imagine, as an emergency medicine physician, the chaos that you saw with that. But I really think there was this period, you know, between like 2005 and 2015 where this caffeine market really had a chance to explode. And, man, we weren’t ready. We were not ready for that at all. So, like you said, good point. Caffeine has many different vehicles, including chocolate, including these things that you wouldn’t necessarily understand. So keep an eye on what you’re consuming. I think this is a great time to pivot to performance. So obviously, for all the concerns around sleep, there’s no denying that caffeine does have proven effects when timed appropriately. So can we talk a little bit about, hey, it’s not all bad news here,
Jeff Sankoff 29:45
right? I think we’ve been clear that it’s not all bad news. And the reality is, is, as I said before, the benefits, depending on who you read, can range. Some people have said things crazy, things like 10% improvement. I don’t buy that. I think most of the papers fall in the area between two and 5% in terms of like, Time Trial performance on a bike or 5k times on the run. And that’s been pretty steady. I tend to believe it’s probably closer to 2% but 2% is not nothing when you consider people are willing to spend 1000s of dollars for aero wheels to get, like, just a couple of seconds over a 40k time trial. 2% is a lot more than a couple of seconds. So yeah, 2% benefit. Basically, if you take caffeine within an hour or two of starting an event, and once, like I said, the event starts to extend beyond two or three hours and re upping that caffeine can be quite helpful in getting an energy boost as you are fatiguing and getting deep into a race. That can be like for a half Ironman anywhere from four to eight hours. So it’s definitely there, and it definitely seems to help with both aerobic and anaerobic types of performance. So strength performance also is boosted. I can’t remember what the data shows for strength performance, but I believe it’s also in the same range. There
Griffin McMath 31:10
was a study in nutrients in 2024 called the effects of acute ingestion of caffeine capsules on muscle strength and muscle endurance. A systematic review and meta analysis, and they showed that, like you said, an acute ingestion of caffeine capsules, in this case, significantly improved muscle strength and muscle endurance, especially in males, which I thought was pretty interesting. And they obviously do highlight in this meta analysis the things that we’ve talked about and how caffeine can be potentiated a little bit differently in some bodies, and they do make it really clear that they did use capsules in this, but there was, if I remember correctly, showed that ingesting caffeine 45 minutes pre exercise were more effective in improving muscle Strength, especially with lower body muscle strength, which is obviously key, yeah,
Jeff Sankoff 32:04
bigger benefit for those athletes who have lower fitness or lower strength going into it. That’s not uncommon. If a supplement is going to show some kind of benefit, it tends to show more benefit for those who are untrained or less trained.
Griffin McMath 32:20
So we talked about this the other day in a conversation, I think, with Trevor or Dr Scott fry, and talking about who can benefit from this and who it’s appropriate for. But I think the thing I really liked about this particular study was that it didn’t say, Hey, you have to have these massive doses of caffeine. It’s actually you can get the great effects with low to moderate So rather than thinking, Oh, if I slam a bunch of caffeine before this race or before this time trial, actually, a little goes a long way for the effects that you need it for if you’re starting to take it for reaction time or clarity, I think that’s when we really start to get into tricky water here, especially because of the to speak really casually, here are the jitters that you talked about at the very beginning. So I think maybe we can split this up. When we talk about caffeine and performance and why athletes are taking it, we’ve talked about muscle strength and muscle endurance. What other roles do you see people? I mean, do you see it for mental alertness and for reaction time. Well,
Jeff Sankoff 33:21
I mean, that’s I mean, let’s face it, I mean, when you have to get up at three or four in the morning to show up for a race, that’s why people are taking caffeine. It helps them wake up. It helps them be more alert and not forget anything by the door or anything like that. And then when they arrive at their race, they have more mental acuity to be able to do the things they need to do. Now, when you’re doing an endurance race, triathlon or cycling, you tend not to it’s not a huge mental task, but it doesn’t hurt to have more clarity, to focus on things like getting out of transition and having everything kind of set up properly, and then in the swim, executing your plan and reacting to whatever obstacles come up along the way, and when you’re in a bike race, just tactics and responding quickly to anything that might come up so that you don’t have a problem like a crash or anything. So sure, I think that the mental acuity and the alacrity and the clarity that you get from caffeine definitely is a bonus. I don’t think it’s why people necessarily think of caffeine as a performance boost, because we know that the endurance performance is very real, the alertness and everything else is a little bit harder to measure.
Griffin McMath 34:36
I think that aspect of athletes feeling sharper when caffeinated, there’s this just really strong perception of that too. And I can’t help but to not think of if caffeine, however you have it, tea, coffee, especially in the morning, is part of your routine and habit. If it is so habitual that you’re having these before you have coffee, you can’t. Remember, I can’t help but not think about this placebo effect of just engaging in this ritual and all of the steps that happen, that coffee can be part of that narrative. And because it’s a sensory experience, our brains almost tying onto that part too. First comes this taste and flavor and the smell, and then comes this muscle memory, speaking of feeling sharp when I was preparing for this episode, looking at athletes and their relationship to caffeine, recognizing that a lot of athletes have this, oh well, yeah, I drink coffee to feel sharp, to do these things, and then way less athletes thinking about how the caffeine could improve motor unit recruitment or contraction efficiency, and so I’m curious if you’ve seen anything like that in your research, or if that’s been your experience. I haven’t
Jeff Sankoff 35:49
come across anything that sort of detailed. And I definitely I love what you say about the habit and about the routine, because there’s no question in my mind that is a huge part of this, right? I mean, I have this really nice coffee machine. As soon as I start grinding the beans, and as soon as I start hearing the sounds of the steam coming through the coffee and making my morning Espresso, I Yeah, absolutely, I start waking up even before the coffee has hit my lips. And so I do not doubt for a second that there is almost this Pavlovian kind of response to the whole coffee ritual, and that is hardwired into us over time, whether or not there’s true recruitment of any kind of circuits once we drink the coffee. I don’t know. I think it’s certainly intriguing. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is some research on that somewhere. I just haven’t seen it myself. I
Griffin McMath 36:49
think as far as like, neuromuscular efficiency, I think there’s some studies, but not necessarily on endurance athletes. So I think what I had read was about Olympic boxers or other types of dynamic athletes,
Jeff Sankoff 37:04
and that gets to the central nervous system, the improved reflexes and the improved clarity. So that wouldn’t surprise me.
Dr. Paul Laursen 37:13
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Griffin McMath 37:41
So two other areas that we didn’t touch on, as far as potential benefits were reduced, RPE and potential pain and discomfort suppression thoughts on that, yeah,
Jeff Sankoff 37:52
they’re both interesting. Both of those things are so subjective, and it’s really hard to predict how anybody is going to respond. There is certainly very good theoretical reasons why caffeine should impact both of those. Caffeine has its impacts, as we’ve said many times now, on the central nervous system and on the cardiovascular system, which is where RPE comes from. So in some people, too much caffeine is going to actually increase RPE, because they’re going to feel their heart beating quicker, and that sensation of their increased heart rate is going to make it feel like their RPE is higher than it actually is. But if you have less than that, if you have less caffeine, where it’s not necessarily impacting your heart rate quite as much, but it is impacting your central nervous system to the point that you are potentially both clearer of mind, but also more immune to some of these sensations. And sure your RPE could go down, I could imagine that. I don’t know that anybody’s actually studied it. And then the second point was related to pain sensation. I think someone has looked at that. In fact, caffeine is included in a lot of headache medicines, not so much for its pain relief, but because caffeine enhances the uptake of medications. So when you include caffeine with ibuprofen or with any other kind of medication, the caffeine improves the uptake in the gastrointestinal attack through mechanisms that aren’t totally well understood, but it seems to improve the uptake of these drugs, and so the drugs work better now, whether or not the caffeine also has an impact on desensitizing pain fibers or has some role within the way pain is transmitted, that is not 100%
Griffin McMath 39:34
clear. And what a terrible thing it would be to take caffeine prior thinking, oh my gosh, this is gonna make me feel like I can go the distance, and then realize my heart is beating outside of my chest and it’s actually working against right? That would be such a terrible experience well,
Jeff Sankoff 39:53
and that’s the issue with seeing all of these like, anytime I’m doing a triathlon and I go through an aid station, and it’s good that Morton does. Their branding the way they do. The white gels have caffeine, the black ones don’t. But sometimes it’s hard to find the people who are holding the non caffeinated ones. And before you know it, you go through three aid stations, you’ve had 300 milligrams of caffeine, and you’re like, ah, oh my god, yeah. So it’s not so good. It
Griffin McMath 40:16
seems like it should be an option, not the mainstream. Go to option at an aid station. It
Jeff Sankoff 40:22
generally is an option. They usually have both. But sometimes you’re if you’re going through the aid station slowly, you can generally figure out which is which and find them pretty quickly. But if you’re racing and you’re going through pretty fast, you might miss the person who had the black packets, and all you get is the white packet, and you’re
Griffin McMath 40:40
just loaded, just soaring through, yeah, oh my goodness. Okay, so we’ve talked about some of these studies and the benefits and how it said, Hey, you don’t even have to have a high dose. Here are some clear effects, especially in trained athletes. And this is the reasonable impact that you can expect. We obviously talked about, hey, evening use should probably be discouraged, even if you think you feel fine. But understanding that athlete tolerance as one might feel it subjectively, is going to be very unique. Any other notes we should make before we wrap up on performance when it comes to competition, timing and caffeine or tailoring by sport type? No, I
Jeff Sankoff 41:21
don’t think so. I think just remember, it’s not uncommon that when you take caffeine, it has actions on our gastrointestinal tract. It also, because you’re taking it, usually in liquid form, it’s then going to have some genitourinary impact. So often, I like the effects of caffeine in the morning because I know that I’m not going to have to visit the Porta Potty in transition, because I will be able to take care of my issues. Yeah, clockwork, right, but I probably will have to pee in transition, because all of the liquid that I will take with my caffeine is going to end up wanting to be voided before I start to sweat. Well,
Griffin McMath 42:02
we’re both adults and in the medical field, so let’s get practical. Let’s just lean into it. If you’re an athlete listening to this and you’re wondering, what do I do differently, or what do I have to consider when utilizing caffeine? Let’s help them understand where to start, what to expect, and just be pretty direct here before Jeff responds, just a quick reminder, you’re listening to this podcast as a listener, not a patient. Dr Jeff sankoff and I are both medical professionals, but we’re not your doctors, so nothing in this episode should be taken as medical advice. Always talk to your own healthcare provider before making changes to your caffeine intake supplements or training plan.
Jeff Sankoff 42:41
So caffeine in itself, is not a diuretic, which means that caffeine does not increase the amount of urine your kidneys produce. However, because caffeine is taken in liquid form, so you drink a couple of cups of coffee, you drink whatever you’re drinking, that liquid itself is going to be excreted by your kidneys as pee. So you are going to have to pee after drinking your coffee. That’s just the way it goes. Now, caffeine seems to have some kind of effect on your gastrointestinal system, so it is very common when you have a morning coffee to then want to go poop. And as I said, I like to have my coffee at home before I leave for the race. And so, hey, I get to take care of that business before I leave, and not have to worry about doing that business in the Porta Potty. Which, honestly, who wants to do that
Griffin McMath 43:29
a twofer? No pun intended Exactly. Oh, my goodness. So maybe the first thing that we can help athletes listening to this is helping them walk through a caffeine audit of what they’re currently taking, when and why, that might be the first step. What are you taking, when and why, and get really clear on this. People have done this through things like diet diaries and understanding their relationship with caffeine and the symptom picture that they might be experiencing. Again, we talked about some of those red flags earlier. Are you experiencing restlessness, waking early, delayed onset of the benefits of the caffeine that you already are taking, and get really clear what’s working and what’s not. And then what would you say about resetting or tapering? Any thoughts on, cycling off periodically, the concept of restoring sensitivity? Yeah, so
Jeff Sankoff 44:22
that goes back to some of the research that we talked about in terms of withdrawal, and that same research has shown that there’s really no benefit to coming off caffeine thinking you’re going to get more of a boost when you suddenly go back on it for a race. So that has been looked at several times, and all of the research on that suggests that you don’t need to do that and that you don’t actually get you may feel psychologically, again, that, Oh, I haven’t had caffeine in a while. It really hit me hard, and there’s no question psychologically that seems to be the fact, but physiologically, there’s no benefit in terms of improved performance. So. So if you enjoy coffee like I do, you don’t need to go without in order to get some kind of benefit on race day. You can just keep going all the way through.
Griffin McMath 45:10
I personally love to hear it, because I love coffee as I don’t know if everyone around me loves that. I love coffee when my personality is already quite effervescent. One might say, some would say, I have a caffeine sensitivity, but I refuse to quit. So let’s talk a little bit more about just kind of wrapping up timing strategy when they should aim for. Let’s talk about maybe the working athlete who has a nine to five needs to fit in rides or training before, during or after work, and the privacy of our own home or office, where we might like to experience some of those effects of caffeine. When can people aim to have their caffeine intake considering the pre work, during work or after work, rider workout. So
Jeff Sankoff 45:59
my philosophy is always training needs to fit your life, not the other way around. So if coffee is a big part of your life, then that’s what’s important. Drink your coffee when you want to drink your coffee when it gives you pleasure. With that being said, just keep in mind, if you’re going to go for a long run in the afternoon and you’re having a cup of coffee within an hour or so before going for that long run, you’re probably going to have to stop somewhere. Now, if you are one of those people who are completely immune to the effects of coffee and caffeine, then you know that. Then you don’t need to change anything, but you should probably just pay attention, like you were saying earlier, Griffin about looking at your food diary and looking how your body reacts to how you take in different things and getting a sense for well, you know, I drank coffee at seven o’clock this morning, and I went for my bike ride at eight o’clock, and I found by nine o’clock I really needed to stop somewhere. Or alternatively, I took my coffee at seven o’clock, and, man, I felt great on the bike at eight, whereas one day I didn’t get my cup of coffee, and I was really sluggish. So those kinds of things are really helpful to help you determine your own timing. I could say that generically, as you said, from the science, getting into your caffeine anywhere from one to two hours before starting, and if you’re out there for a really long time, if you really enjoy the boost of caffeine, taking some kind of caffeinated beverage or gel after three to four hours, and doing that, repeating that every couple of hours afterwards, as long as you stay without going crazy. By that, I mean no more than 100 milligrams at a time, and probably spaced out by two hours or so. Then that’s how I would advise it. Yeah,
Griffin McMath 47:39
and that actually reminds me of a great moment in Trevor Connor’s conversation recently with Brent buchwalter, where he shared his own journey with caffeine, how it started with bad coffee on long commutes and evolved into a much more strategic tool as a pro athlete. Let’s listen to that real quick.
Brent Bookwalter 47:58
I definitely consumed caffeine, I guess from the time I was started undergrad and commuting my first year of undergrad, I was living at home in Michigan and commuting out to Grand Valley State University and had a bit of a drive. I started drinking coffee, then bad coffee at that time, but developed a love and a taste for a morning cup of coffee or two. So that was always part of like, getting my day going. Always the coffee machine and the bust, hitting the double espresso before the start, I’d say more strategically towards the end of my career, though being conscious of how much pre race caffeine I was getting, trying to lower and periodize general caffeine intake through the year a little bit so I could use it as a ergogenic aid, and then In races, definitely using caffeine depending on the race, various stages of the race, the whole race, just the end, you know, if it’s a one day race, I knew caffeine would usually support my performance, so I would use it quite progressively, and use a lot of it, because it would affect my recovery, and it would chip into and diminish recovery. And going to a stage race, it becomes a little trickier when you’re going day to day to day, I would be meticulous about picking my moments when I would use some extra caffeine during a race, knowing that maybe I don’t get to sleep as well. Heart rate stays elevated, don’t recover as well for the next day, and being conscious of backing that up.
Griffin McMath 49:19
Such a good example and realistic example of how personal routines and Performance Strategy intersect, and how caffeine isn’t just about the buzz pun intended, but the timing, the dose and even the recovery implications. So Jeff, speaking of what you would advise, not from a medical perspective, just as a coach, do you talk to your athletes about caffeine, or when you’re looking at their data, can you actually see the difference?
Jeff Sankoff 49:43
I definitely talk to them about it in terms of race plans. I’m very careful to make sure that I will tell them, Yes, you’re going to get some boost from this. And this is when I would encourage you to consider taking it. I don’t tell them to have to, but I say this is if you’re considering taking caffeine. This is when I would take it, and I would be sure that you stay within this limit. Don’t take more than this. The other thing is, you know, my athletes are always asking me, Well, how much do you look at heart rate data? And I say, honestly, not a whole lot, because I know my athletes all work regular jobs, and I say heart rate is so influenced by how much coffee Did you drink that day? What kind of stress were you under? How much sleep did you get the day before? It’s not like heart rate is super regular from day to day in an athlete, in an age group athlete’s life. So do I follow it, of course, but do I use it as a hard and fast I do not, because I recognize that they’re so sensitive to all of these other external influences, and caffeine is a big one.
Griffin McMath 50:46
Well, you know, if we start doing this whole coach thing at the end of this summer, per the phone call we had earlier today, if the fateful fear that I have ever happens, I’m just going to send you that a text, and I’m going to say, didn’t nail the timing, have officially claimed a rite of passage. Okay, also someone, I
Jeff Sankoff 51:07
feel like we’re being very cryptic. I know, and it’s all good. You’ll
Griffin McMath 51:12
know. Your child will know. That’s the only people that need to know. I obviously, because of my background, would feel an obligation to make sure that people can think about non caffeine aids that, especially for those who are caffeine sensitive, that can support them in a variety of the different benefits that we talked about today, without necessarily some of the negative impacts or the concerns about timing. I think some of the ones that I would recommend right away, and some of these seem that they would pale in comparison, because we’re all so familiar with the strength of coffee. And I brought this analogy up on this show before. I always think of when we think about interventions that are really loud and obvious and that are all really ingrained in our culture. It’s like this company who did, maybe it was Listerine, when they started putting out alcohol free mouthwash, and there is a grandson and a grandfather at the mirror, and they’re both in their white tank tops getting ready for bed, and the kid has his own special mouthwash, and the grandpa picks it up, takes a swig and goes, if it doesn’t burn, it doesn’t do the Trick. It was part of that commercial, that ad, helped change the way that people related to efficacy, that something doesn’t have to have this classic side effect or experience for it to be effective, including something that could be potentially uncomfortable. So these might seem kind of like the not so stingy mouthwash that I’m mentioning here, but there is something to getting morning sunlight kind of going outside, emerging from your cocoon, your cave, and eyes visible to the sun. Breath work can be really effective if you’re using the right protocol. This one’s very trendy right now, but it’s been around for much longer than the Instagram influencers and Tiktok influencers have been using. But cold exposure is beneficial, and then we talked about placebo effect, or we talked about rituals beforehand and really getting yourself into a good ritual. And a lot of athletes will use specific music choices to do that, which I always think is great. A lot of people are familiar with Michael Phelps and the soundtrack that he used. I think it was like a lot of Lil Wayne into the Olympics. But I will say there are songs and artists that I do not allow myself to listen to while driving anymore, because they can wake me up so much that I will get so into them, I will look down and not realize that I’m mega speeding because I can feel my heart rate going I am like alert. My mood is improved. So for me, a good playlist can absolutely compensate for one to two cups of coffee. I wouldn’t say three, but definitely get up there. So these are some of the non caffeine focus aids or mood lifters. Do you have any other things that you would recommend that are not caffeine. I
Jeff Sankoff 54:02
think all of the things that you mentioned are excellent. And I think we all know cold air is just as good as cold water to wake up. We all know how bright light can really get you going, and that’s triggering a chain reaction in the pineal gland and really helps with setting your circadian rhythm, and, yeah, just all the things you mentioned are really good. And the best part about it is they don’t involve taking a pill or a tablet or a powder. They’re just all things that you can do really easily and without purchasing anything. So I love all of those.
Griffin McMath 54:37
If you’re ever curious, I will text you my playlist, some of my songs, as long as you promise to be responsible and not drive Madonna’s ray of light is one of them. Go listen to it after this podcast and then message me. You’ll completely understand why you’re listening. I totally want that playlist. I actually have never allowed myself to put all the songs in one place because I was like, What if I get tempted? One. Day, or, like, one day. What if I’m really fatigued? Playlist sounds like a real Yeah, I know I’m like, hyping it up, but like, soul will leave body, which is a perfect cue to our forum question for the week. So head over to forums.fasttalklabs.com, where the question for this particular episode is, what have you learned about your own caffeine tolerance, or any tips or tricks that you’d like to share with people? And if you’re not using caffeine, what are you using for these benefits? And if it’s a really great playlist, please private message it to me. I would love to hear all right, I think it’s time for take homes. What do you think? Yeah, let’s do it. Okay. Well, immediately, I wanna make a joke about timing, but I’m gonna let you start our takeaways as the person who was my hero, and then I will take the burden of wrapping it all up. What do you think is important for people to take away from our conversation about the research, the practical tips today? I
Jeff Sankoff 55:59
think that my biggest message is always, if you enjoy something, enjoy it and don’t spend too much time in the weeds worrying about, oh, a study showed this, or a study showed that. And I’m not going to do if you are a current coffee drinker and just really enjoy the coffee, then great. If you’re not a coffee drinker. Don’t start drinking coffee because you think it’s going to somehow give you some benefit or bonus. Do things in your life that you enjoy, and if they happen to be beneficial for your training, wonderful. Don’t change your whole life just because you think there’s some marginal gain for you to get somewhere along the way. Coffee is one of those things that is a pleasure. It happens to have a lot of great health benefits and, oh, hey, bonus, it also gives you a little bit of a performance boost. So enjoy your coffee. However you get it. It can be Folgers. It can be a high priced espresso maker. It doesn’t matter whatever you enjoy, just enjoy it.
Griffin McMath 57:02
That was beautiful. That was poetic, which makes me kind of want to change my takeaway to specifically target to Trevor, Chris andor Julia, who are listening that listen if we need to do a research, follow up to this episode and personally send me to Italy. Jeff, if you would like to come, yeah,
Jeff Sankoff 57:20
let’s do it. We will do a coffee tour. We’ll do
Griffin McMath 57:23
a coffee tour. I’ll let people take whatever metrics they need. I will socialize. If there’s an Italian listener who would like to host, I’m saying let us
Jeff Sankoff 57:33
know. Let us know. Live from the Dolomites. It’s fast talk on the road, Griffin and Jeff coffee riding. Oh my
Griffin McMath 57:39
gosh, yeah, I’ve been supposed to go to the Dolomites, like in 2020 or 2021, or something, and I’ve not been able to go since. So this could be our ticket. There you go. There you go. Okay, so obviously, take that. But my real takeaway here, I think, was just really appreciating in this climate of more is better or biohacking our way to performance, precision to absolute excellence. I think one of the things I really loved about the research that we pulled and prepped for this episode was, you know, what, actually a little goes a long way, and mastering the minimum might be the real pro move here is, rather than going out and seeking how much can I put in? And I’ve been in circles where we will add all of these other nutrients alongside of our caffeine, to allow caffeine to do the good things, but to mitigate its negative effects. And at that point, I’m like, we’ve got so many clowns in the circus going around in our body. That is the real pro move here. This is my takeaway, mastering your own response to caffeine in a way that means I’m getting the most out of the least. And like you said, enjoying it along the way.
Jeff Sankoff 58:55
Yeah, I love that. That’s great, Griffin. That’s great. But
Griffin McMath 58:57
really the takeaway was, invite us to Italy. Thank you. That was another episode of fast talk, the Podcast where we explore the science of endurance performance. If today’s discussion on caffeine gave you something to think about or to stew on, whether it’s how you train, how you recover or how you sleep, be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and leave us a rating, and personally, Jeff and I a review. As always, the thoughts and opinions expressed on fast talk are those of the individual. And join the conversation@forums.fasttalklabs.com or find us on social media at fast talk labs. Now for more insights on endurance training and athlete health, make sure you check out the try doc podcast with today’s co host, Dr Jeff sankoff, where science meets sport with clearly, as you notice today, a sharp dose of honesty and humor. So for access to our full endurance sports knowledge base, Coach education and in person or remote athlete services, visit fast talklabs.com for Dr Jeff sankoff and. The rest of the team here at fast talk. I’m Dr Griffin McNatt. Thanks for listening. You.
