Leipheimer talks with our team about how a new racing model used at the Levi Fondo may be the future of domestic racing.
Episode Transcript
Trevor Connor 00:00
Trevor Connor, hello and welcome to fast talk. Your source for the science of endurance performance. I’m your host. Trevor Connor, here with Coach grant holicky and Dr Andy Pruitt. It’s hard to imagine now, but there was a time 20 years ago when professional us road racers were complaining that there were too many races on the calendar. Since then, the domestic road cycling scene has virtually collapsed. Only a handful of races like the tour Gila have survived the downturn. Fortunately, that hasn’t stopped North American riders like Mateo Jorgensen, Sep Koos and Michael woods for making it to the top ranks in cycling. But there is a heightened awareness that if we aren’t building pathways through the World Tour, this could change and not for the better. One person who’s been trying to create opportunities for road cyclists to develop is ex pro Levi Leipheimer, whose grand fondo has gained the reputation as the hardest one day race in the country. It’s also brought a lot of attention to some rising American stars by live streaming the event. The thing is, Levi’s fondo doesn’t follow the traditional model of road racing, and that may be a good thing. The Future of Us racing may not be trying to rebuild what we had, but exploring a whole new approach to racing. On today’s episode, Levi talks with us about the state of US racing, why there was such a decline, and what the new model of domestic racing could be, two of the efforts with the most potential to rebuild domestic pro racing are his fondo and George hincapie’s new team, modern adventure pro cycling. This raises a concern that much of the effort is coming from riders who are part of a darker chapter in American racing. Lightheimer, to his credit, doesn’t shy away from his involvement in doping scandals. He is apologetic and focuses more on wanting to give back to a sport he loves. The question is whether there’s been enough time for the American cycling team to accept these reinvented roles, joining lightheimer. We’ll also hear from mental performance coach and NBC commentator Brent Bookwalter. Bookwalter is part of a later generation of pros who witnessed the fall of domestic racing. He shares his thoughts on what happened and where we need to go. We’ll also hear from Fred Dreyer, the article’s editor at Outside Magazine, and the former editor in chief of Vela news. He has written about pro cycling throughout this period and shares his thoughts on the return of the past generation of riders and where he sees the opportunity for domestic riders now. So get ready for a frank conversation, and let’s make you fast.
Dr. Paul Laursen 02:20
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Trevor Connor 02:50
well, Levi, first time we’ve had you on the show. So welcome to fast talk.
Levi Leipheimer 02:53
Thank you for having me excited to be here. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen Dr Pruitt, so it’s nice to catch up with him, it is, and to
Trevor Connor 03:01
meet you both. When was the last time you two were in the same room together? It was
Levi Leipheimer 03:05
my last year racing. I was on Omega Pharma, quick step, and Dr Pruitt came to Santa Rosa to check my bike fit, and we made some orthotics for you. So when would that have been? That was December of 2011 Wow. That’s going back while ago, he looks the same to me. He’s
Grant Holicky 03:23
looked the same since I met him in 99
Levi Leipheimer 03:26
Yeah, that’s a testament to cycling and how good it is for you. That’s
Trevor Connor 03:30
true. So that’s been a long time. What have you been up to since? Oh, well, uh,
Levi Leipheimer 03:34
retirement, first and foremost grant you were talking about your house that burned that house that he’s talking about burned down for me. Yep, and that was Santa Rosa. Eventually I moved to Lake Tahoe. I’ve been there for more than seven years now. Ride my bike a lot, skiing a lot, and organizing Levi’s Gran Fondo
Dr. Andy Pruitt 03:54
sounds like a pretty good life. Retirement is an odd term, right? I’ve been retired for 10 years. Well, you are the worst retiree I’ve ever met. Yeah? Anyway, it’s an interesting term. We just find a new way to live life.
Trevor Connor 04:08
Yeah, every time I get together with Andy, he’s like, yeah, no, I’m retired. And I go, so what are you up to? I’m working with this company. I’m working with that company and that so can you define retirement for
Dr. Andy Pruitt 04:20
I need more time to race my bike,
Grant Holicky 04:22
don’t we all? Don’t we all?
Trevor Connor 04:24
So kind of a topic here that I think is near and dear to all of our hearts here, and I’m gonna introduce it by telling a story of where I kind of misled some riders back in the day. And this is actually how I met Andy. I was the manager of Team Rio Grande, which was a development team. So it was for young riders who were trying to get to the pro ranks. And this was right around 2013 2014 I sat them down because we were seeing that there were fewer races on the calendar. It was harder for us to get a whole schedule, and the speech that I gave them was. Because it comes and goes, it’s like a sine wave. There’s peaks of the domestic cycling, and there’s low points, and we’re on a low point right now, but there’s actually potential opportunity for all of you, because the older riders who have dominated are going to kind of look at this and go, you know, it’s probably a good time to retire, and they’re going to get out of the sport, and then when it comes back up, it’s going to be an opportunity for all of you to be the top riders kind of step into those roles. And I say I misled them, because we waited for it to come back up, and that was 2013 2014 and we’re still waiting. We are actually seeing really a low that I’ve personally never seen in domestic cycling. Back then, I remember around 2007 2008 riders were complaining that there were too many major stage races on the the calendar. They couldn’t go to all of them. Now we have three, if I’m counting them, right. So the question I have for all of you is, what has happened? What has changed since? I’d say probably the start of the decline was around 2010 2011
Levi Leipheimer 06:03
I mean, I can only speak from my perspective and where I’m at now and where I was at before, but yeah, I think I got to be a rider during the heyday of American cycling. As far as you know, the top end of the sport, the riders in the Tour de France, the success that myself and my peers were having in the world tour, the amount of races in the us both. You know, at the top end of the UCI level and at the grassroots level, there were plenty of options. People were paying attention. You know, Lance Armstrong had a huge effect on cycling in the US. And then we’ve seen a lot of things happen. We saw the whole you saw the reason decision happen. I think that obviously had an effect on it. I think the cost of organizing events has gone through the roof, especially after covid. Being an event organizer now I get to see the inside of that, and the cost of insurance, the cost of traffic control, and you’ve seen the shift to gravel. I think part because of those things, it’s less expensive to organize. It’s shiny and new. It has definitely pulled the US ridership in that direction, which is not a bad thing at all. I think that it’s a great way for talent to develop. Lifetime has sunk a ton of money into their series. That’s a great thing for us cycling. It offers that platform for our talent and for our riders to participate and to develop and to show themselves. And so, from where I sit now, and what I’ve been working on the last 16 years now with Levi’s Gran Fondo, is to try to fill that hole that exists with some sort of competitive road event that I believe is the hardest one day road cycling event in the US, borrowing a little bit from the model of gravel in a self supported format. So no follow cars, no team cars try to level the playing field for that 18 year old kid traveling by car by himself from another state, try and go up against the likes of Keegan Swenson. So, yeah, I think we’re just trying to create something new, because the old way of doing it just doesn’t exist right now.
Grant Holicky 08:02
No, the old model is really struggling, right? I mean, we see that the biggest UCI race in the States is Trevor the helo, which is a great race, but it’s hard to get to. It’s out of the way. We don’t have any live coverage for it. And, I mean, that’s something we’ve noticed for cross over the past few years. When the live coverage isn’t there, the event struggles in terms of national followship, and there’s really no way around that. If I can get on my computer and load up Levi’s race and watch Marcus through the end of that Marcus Shelton off the front, and these guys chasing him and just the there is so much drama to that this year. I can’t tell you, for whatever it’s worth, guys that with 40k to go in that race. I wasn’t watching, and my phone started blowing up because it was all the cross kids I coach and all the cross people that I work with going Marcus is off the front. He’s gonna win all this money. And like, immediately tuned in, and that ability in the age we live in, where we can get communication so fast people go, you gotta turn this on. You gotta turn this on. You gotta turn this on. You gotta turn this on. It’s huge, and we don’t have it for but a couple races in the States, and that’s really
Trevor Connor 09:07
hurt. Brent Bookwalter has seen the highs and lows of domestic racing. Let’s hear his thoughts on where things are at and on some of the challenges of bringing back big races.
Brent Bookwalter 09:17
I think it’s a tough time to be a road racing aficionado or lover in the US, especially a hard time to be a developing aspiring young road racer who dreams of going to race in Europe. The pathway that exists today is not what it was when I went through for sure, there really is no clear pathway. So I think seeing events like Levi’s Fonda that this year turned to a bit more of a epic, one day, classic sort of bike race that was exciting, just from my experience riding in that area over the years around Santa Rosa. It’s world class, stunning, breathtaking riding. So that’s like the dream. It’s like having a calendar of races return to not just like any old place in the US, but really where the riding is incredible too. But yeah, it’s tough. Times, I never put on a professional race. But from, you know, just having our non profit event, the book Walter binge, Gran Fondo for multiple years, I have a little appreciation for what it means to organize a bike event, a bike race, a Gran Fondo. And yeah, it’s tough. It’s costly in terms of dollars. It’s costly in terms of time. It’s heavy on local and community relationships. It can give back a lot, too. So those that are in the race, promoting business and event promoting business are in a difficult, tough time, and I feel bad for the youth of the sport today that don’t have races like Utah and Colorado and California to go showcase their ability on home turf against, you know, an international field, because that was a hugely influential part of my career. So I still hold on to hope and dream that some events like those will come back again in the future.
Grant Holicky 10:45
I was going to ask Levi this. I’m really curious about it, and I’m hoping we see a change going down the road. Levi, how much were you affected growing up by watching somebody like Lamond or Hampson or 711 and again, that was something we had access to. I mean, every Sunday during the tour, there was those tour recaps with the great John Tesh music. I mean, it was just unbelievably stressful and exciting. But I feel like that led to, I mean, maybe I’m speaking out of turn, but that led to a lot of guys going, Oh, I have an opportunity in cycling at the highest level.
Dr. Andy Pruitt 11:19
Well, first of all, the guy said, I want to do that, right? I mean, it wasn’t so much an opportunity, but as young kids saw it, and I want to do that right? So I want to go back farther, Grant. I mean, I I’ve got the longest history here as I’m obviously the oldest guy here, but I saw the, what I consider the modern golden age of cycling. Begin with the Coors classic, actually, the red Zinger that became the course classic. It became a huge stage race. The greatest riders from around the world came, in my case, when I got NBC involved, that led to Connie and Davis starting to ride. But to me, it was all about corporate sponsorship that felt like they got a return on their investment, and we’ve lost that. And I think the fall of Lance Armstrong hurt that the corporate money has not come back the way it was. Then I’d love to know from Levi, how successful are you at getting corporate money into your event? I know USAC struggles to get corporate sponsorship. How do we get over this hump, right? How do we get rid of our black eye and get that money back?
Levi Leipheimer 12:20
That’s the question, right there. I mean, I certainly don’t have the answer. I think we just keep doing the best we can, and the timing will happen. You know, eventually we’ll be in the right place where key things fall into place, and it happens. And once one corporate sponsor, non endemic sponsor, gets involved, it will attract more. There’s no question I can just say, for example, with our event last year, with the live stream, it was a huge step forward for us, and we have seen a lot of interest in the event now, particularly from a couple of non endemic corporate sponsors. So it can happen. So that
Trevor Connor 12:55
was a question I wanted to ask you, and I just want to take it a little further. And sorry, I know this is a tough question. Lance Armstrong and US postal did a lot to really promote USA Cycling, but unfortunately, there was a backside to that. And I remember I was a small sponsor of the Cascade cycling classic, and Lance went on Oprah admitted to his doping. And I remember soon after that, talking with the organizer at Cascade, and he told me, yeah, I had a bunch of big donors who just said, we’re out, we’re done. We want nothing to do with us. And that’s when you start to see cascade suffer. And they kept it going for some years, but I think that was a big part of why the race had to end. They just lost those sponsorships. So as you said, we suffered a black guy. My question to you, Levi is, how much do you think we’re still suffering from that black eye, or how much has it healed?
Levi Leipheimer 13:42
Yeah, only time will tell. I think we’re through the worst part of it. You know, the biggest pushback in that regard what you just said, I mean, corporate sponsors, they just have to go with public opinion, and you know, they don’t want to be caught in the crosshairs, so they get out. Part of what I’ve been doing the last half a year doing a lot of these podcasts is I tell the story from the inside, from the writer’s perspective, of what that was like. You know, I was part of this period in cycling at the top level, where science had not caught up to what was happening as far as performance, dancing, drugs. And you know, that situation was not something that I dreamt about when I was 13 years old, when I watched the NBC coverage of the Tour de France. It was one of the greatest tours between Steven Roach and Pedro Delgado. I had a VHS tape of that John Tesh music. I watched that thing into the ground until it was like snow on the VHS tape. And so when I was that 13 year old kid, I didn’t ever dreamt about being in a situation where I had to choose between quitting the sport, going home after working so hard, and dedicating my life to get to that point, and then partaking in what was going on at the time of performance, dancing, drugs. And I definitely don’t make excuses for it. I just want to tell the story so that people can see that it’s not black and white. It was very gray. We’re all humans. None of us are perfect, and I think we were doing the best we could. I look back on it now, and I realize I did the best I could, and it’s taken a long time for me to sit here and say that, because when it all came out in 2012 man, it was really overwhelming, and I felt really small, and everybody was super black and white on it, and we were judged and kind of thrown under the bus and labeled as cheats. But that wasn’t the reality of it, as nothing I was ever proud of doing myself. But again, I think we all did the best we could, including Lance. So if I can tell that story, and people can realize that it was an unfortunate time period, I do really believe that cycling is much cleaner these days. I saw the biological passport in 2008 really change the landscape of that I, for one, stopped using any any methods, and I believe most of the peloton did. And these days, in the era of tare pagochar and vander pol, you don’t see any smoke. There’s no media stories about this guy or that guy testing positive, or somebody getting stopped at the border with their suitcase full of stuff, it just doesn’t happen. So, you know, I can’t say with 100% certainty if everyone’s clean or not, but after what I’ve gone through and what I’ve experienced, I really believe it is and I think that, having said all of that, we’re getting towards a point of truly healing from what happened. Well,
Dr. Andy Pruitt 16:22
you know, you take the whole group, right? Some of you, you included, have done such a nice job of moving on and making the appropriate contrition or apology where Lance, you know, has stubbornly kept his flag stuck in the ground. Would it help if he were to be more apologetic, I don’t know. And of course, now he’s going to help Hincapie with his team. That’s my question for you. Is I know what you’re trying to do with an event. Do you think that what George slash Lance are going to do with their new team? Is that going to help us move on? Or should Lance not be involved, even though they’re saying it’s okay, I love George, and he like you, has moved on in a really nice way. We need another American team. In spite of everything. Look how many Americans are riding the tour. Look how many Americans rode the Giro, and they’re getting big contracts. So I am so hopeful for our future as having just come back from junior nationals and seeing the crowds and the support and the quality of racing, I’m really encouraged. So between what Levi and other promoters are trying to do now, maybe we’re gonna have a new US team. Are we over the hump? Levi,
Levi Leipheimer 17:34
first of all, I think it’d be great that there’s gonna be a new US team. I applaud George and his brother for getting behind it. And you know, it sounds like they have a long term commitment, which is what it really takes, because they need to be able to plan, and if it’s just one, two years at a time, this just doesn’t work, because it’s such a dog eat dog world out there. So they need that runway to really make inroads, and again, to further help heal the sport. And I think as long as what George and I don’t know what Lance’s involvement is, but as long as it’s truly to give back and help the sport forward, and it’s not about them per se, then I think it’s great. And I think that’s the key. That’s what will make it work or not.
Grant Holicky 18:15
I think just to jump in, one of the things that I was pushing at earlier, we have as good of a crew Americans racing in Europe as we’ve had in an awfully long time. Sepp Nielsen, what these guys are doing at the front of bike races. Winning bike races is something we haven’t had in an awfully long time, and I do think that’s part of why we’re seeing this cascading effect down to the junior ranks. We’re seeing people want to get into cycling, because they can see what Mateo is doing, and they see the wins, and they saw what Sepp did at the Vuelta. I think that was huge for the sport. And Americans like to win, right? We like those sports that we’re good at. Now. You can watch the Winter Olympics, and if the curling team’s doing well, all of America suddenly loves curling. I mean, and I’ve been curling, it’s fun. Don’t get me wrong, you know, back off Trevor. Don’t come at me. Canadian any sport you can drink a beer while you’re doing it is a great sport. Just
Trevor Connor 19:10
for the record, curling is Canadian bowling. They have put bowling in the Olympics, and I’m going to get attacked for that, but that’s
Grant Holicky 19:17
what it is. I love it. But I think what is really cool right now with the new team with modern adventure cycling, is that there is a group of 10 to 12 Americans that are going to get a shot. So I think that the opportunity for somebody within the states to put that team out there on the international level and show what we are capable of doing, I think that could make a really big difference.
Trevor Connor 19:39
Fred Dreyer worked as an editor at Vela news and other outlets throughout the doping scandals in the early 2000 10s. Let’s hear his thoughts on some of the riders from that era coming back to the sport.
Fred Dreier 19:52
I think that back in the day 1015, years ago, like 2012 2013 my original feeling was. Oh, my God. You wanna keep the next generation of American cyclists as far away from possible, from these guys who were part of the quote, unquote EPO era, these guys who did dope and who made those decisions, because we’re trying to make this clean break from that generation and try to teach these lessons to the next generation of cyclists about integrity and fair play, and saying, you know, it’s better to finish mid pack, but to do it clean than to win and to dope. And I think that 1015, years ago, the sport really needed to do that, and so you didn’t want these guys heavily involved with the next generation. But here it is. It’s 2025, and a bunch of stuff has changed. One of the things that has changed is we now have had multiple generations come through the sport in America since that generation. And when I was editor in chief of Villa news, I interviewed these guys, and I wrote a lot about the development structure and some of the people who were involved in cycling and cycling development in that sort of post Lance era, and by and large, a lot of them were preaching fair play, clean cycling, creating a new cultural shift, and really instilling in these young American cyclists the values of fair play. I mean, I think about the Kelly benefits, slash Optum slash human powered Health Program, where pretty much every good American cyclist over the course of 1015, years went through that program, and that program very adamantly, did not hire anyone to be a director or a coach or a racer who had any sort of connection to doping or any sort of buzz about them. And that program and others really helped create this cultural gap.
Trevor Connor 21:42
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Levi Leipheimer 23:12
Well, first, I’ll say that I need to give credit where credit’s due. Carlos Perez and his team at bike monkey, they’re the ones really shouldering the brunt of this. You know, I step in here and there where I can, I talk to all the athletes to try to get them there and work on details. But just to be clear, this is not just me doing all of this. It definitely takes a team. It takes a community. We have a ton of amazing volunteers that show up, and there’s just no way we can do this without sponsors, the participants riding all the routes of volunteers, bike monkey, our community partners, like CHP and the town of Windsor is fantastic to work with. But as to your question, looking forward versus looking back, I kind of go back to what I said before. I think that we’re just trying to find a way to make this work. And for example, you know, we are not a USA Cycling or Ucci sanctioned event. I have nothing against them, but as an American event organizer, it just doesn’t make sense for us to be sanctioned with them. They don’t really offer us anything that allows us to charge our participants more money than what’s on top of what it already costs to run the event and say, Oh, well, here’s a license for USA Cycling, and this is what you get for it. I really wish that USA Cycling UCI could adapt with us and try to figure this out together, because I feel like they’re kind of stuck in the old ways of doing and it just doesn’t work anymore for us. It still works in Europe, but it doesn’t work in the US. So what are the old ways. I mean, most of our participants that ride all the routes, they’re not the USA Cycling racer, but they are helping us organize this event, which, by participating in it, that really helps us organize this top level race, because without them, it would never happen. We don’t have enough sponsors to just put on a. Space for a couple 100 people. We need 1000s of people that bring in the tourism dollars to the area, that fill hotel beds, that allow us to get more of these community partners, some of these non endemic partners, to subsidize the budget to put on this race that I’m talking about. It’s definitely
Grant Holicky 25:19
the marathon and Ironman model. I think that’s part of what we’re seeing. The success come from gravel, right? Is that you can run a prize Paris, you can run an elite race on the shoulders of the general participation. And a lot of that general participation, certainly in triathlon and running, was based on completion. It wasn’t necessarily about some race where you’re banging bars and you’re hammering it’s overcoming the challenge of the course that’s laid in front of you. And so for the common man, you know, I hate the term weekend warrior. I mean, these are people that are trading every day, and they’re putting a lot into it, but a race feels daunting, and to a lot of the newcomers to our sport, it feels incredibly daunting. And a fondo like yours, a gravel race. It’s a way in, and we have to embrace that way in to broaden the sport and get some of those people up into racing, but also get them interested in watching the highest level of racing. And we saw that work really, really well with triathlon for sure, and with Ironman for sure. And I think we see it in Boulder. I mean, we’re spoiled in Boulder, but we see it with the boulder. Boulder people all running in the morning, and they all go to the stadium, they get their snack pack afterwards, and we watch the pros come in, and that’s epic. And it encourages people and encourages kids.
Levi Leipheimer 26:34
Yeah, you hit the nail on the head there. Exactly.
Dr. Andy Pruitt 26:36
My feeling is that a lot of the gravel races are full of the 35 to 55 year old wannabe, or has been like me, although I’m far over that. Are you seeing that same kind of thing where you have a lot of middle aged participants? What are you doing to bring women in and kids
Levi Leipheimer 26:53
in? I wish I had the numbers in front of me, but I’ll do my best to pull ’em out of memory. I think we are about 20 to 25% women, maybe a little bit above that, which I think compared to other events, is pretty good. We’ve definitely increased that over the years. Our ages, of course, go from eight years old because we have a family route that’s free to anybody. It’s only an eight mile route, but it’s super cool. Last year, there were tons of cruisers that all decorated out families, kids on trikes, and all ages, all abilities. So there’s six or seven routes from eight miles all the way up to the growler, which is 135 miles, 14,000 feet of climbing. And I think you’re right. The chunk of our participants are 30 to 60 years old. And I’d say the biggest route we have is about 80 miles with 4000 feet of climbing, which is kind of a perfect day out. And again, it’s mostly about completing it, especially when it comes to the Growler. I mean, this is the biggest ride that people will do their whole lives. It’s the toughest course in America, and it rivals, in my opinion, the toughest one day course in the world, which probably is Liege best on the edge, and the numbers are identical to that.
Trevor Connor 28:04
So what impact does this have on young riders now who are looking to go pro? You know, as you said, the old model was you got on a team, you went to a bunch of NRCS, you built a resume, and then you hoped it was good enough that it could get you on a team that would take you across the pond. We don’t have many of those stage races, and certainly Young Riders are trying to go to those. But how do they navigate in this new scene with this sort of event? How do they stand out? Well,
Levi Leipheimer 28:31
I think they have to take advantage of the events that are out there. That means doing some gravel races, doing, you know, what is technically a Gran Fondo, but what they would be participating in. We call it the growler, and it’s, again, it’s the toughest one day race in America, with a live broadcast and the biggest prize person in the world. And it’s self supported. The aid stations are neutral, apart from one which we still have neutral bottle hand UPS there, so you can show up by yourself and be on equal footing with anyone else. So you got to take advantage of what’s out there and do your best. And America’s tough. It requires a lot of travel. You know, it’s never been easy. I think we just have to kind of keep working the best we can.
Dr. Andy Pruitt 29:09
Even the old model required lots of travel. I mean, this is a big country, right? Yeah.
Grant Holicky 29:14
I really think one of the things that I’m hopeful for, I mean, we see every sport trying to pluck talent younger and younger and younger and younger. And it’s unfortunate, because I think we have a lot of riders that are going to develop both physically and mentally later in life, and if we can find some riders that are able to show the path through gravel and fondos and the American scene, and then we have those stepping stones, like a team like Project echelon, that’s doing some racing in Europe, and then the new map pro cycling team that can take a chance on a kid like that, and I say kid at 25 or 26 and get them that pathway in. They can have some success at the highest level, and they’ve got some time to do it. We’re seeing riders race. Later into their 30s, and as a coach and a mental strength guy, I look at it and go, I almost think the battle for a 20 year career isn’t whether you start at 18, it’s how long mentally Can you hold on to the grind? How long can you do the training? How long can you do the travel? How long can you live away from your family? How long are you willing to take your family to live in Spain, to race bikes? And those really seem to be the challenges that I don’t think are spoken of enough, because those mental battles, that’s what drains you. That’s what brings you to this point where it’s like, you know, it’s just time to be done. I can’t keep doing this. And so that route into the peloton for a mid 20s rider. I think we have to almost show that path in the States, because it’s it doesn’t exist very many other places in the world. It just doesn’t. If you’re not making it 1819, 20, you’re just not gonna make it. I
Levi Leipheimer 30:53
think you’re exactly right. Like I kind of worry about this new school emphasis on younger and younger riders. I mean, let’s see how long pagochar lasts. For example, you know, he’s been at the highest level from such a young age with so much pressure on him. We’ll see if he makes it much past 30.
Grant Holicky 31:10
Well, you see it with vander pol and he will say, flat out, I can’t do what I did at 20. I can’t do what I did, ma’am. So cold race. I can’t do that anymore, physically, I won’t come from way back and win a bike race. That’s not who I am. So he has to adjust as he gets older in the peloton to be successful still. And how many riders are capable of doing that? I think you’re dead on with today. How long is he able to do that at that level?
Trevor Connor 31:36
There was a great study that looked at that exact question. Do you have to start as a junior? And what does it look like when you start as a junior versus later in life? And what the study showed was, when you contrasted people that started very young from people who started in their mid 20s and had their career later, absolutely no difference in their careers. Everybody had about 10 years of racing at the top. It was just a question whether those 10 years were in your late teens and 20s, or if they were in your late 20s and 30s. But you almost never saw a rider who lasted 20 years,
Levi Leipheimer 32:10
you know, taking away the toll that the years take mentally. And you highlighted travel. For example, I got sick of the travel towards the end of my career, and I’m still sick, actually, but physically, you can be good into your 40s. There’s no question. I retired. I was still just as strong as I was into my mid 40s. And you know, I wasn’t obviously riding as much, but I was still riding, and I could still pedal the bike really fast. So I know that for sure 100% but like I said, this new school approach of like, let’s get teenagers onto the world tour. I don’t see them making it into 40. That’s just too long, too much pressure, too much travel, day in, day out. You know, it’s a job that is 24/7 for 11 months of the year. It’s too much. So I think there’s gonna be sort of a swing. You know, they’re looking at teenagers. There’s got to be a swing to where they realize, like, Okay, we can’t just focus on kids. This young Keegan, for example, you know, I have no doubt that he could be successful on the World Tour. He can compete in Grand Tours, winning stages, or being a super good Domestique for pagochar or Vanguard. He could make a great living. He could still do it for another 10 years over there if he wanted to, but the teams at the top level see someone who’s 30, and they’re like, No way that’s too old. But I don’t see that. What it comes down to is, does he want to do it? Can he mentally last over there for 10 years move his family like you said to Spain? You know, right now, that doesn’t work for him. I’ve had this conversation, but the majority of that is coming from the fact that teams, they’re not even looking at them because they’re so focused on teenagers. And I don’t think that’s sustainable. There has to be a way in from 18 until about 30, I was late. I didn’t hit the World Tour until I was 26 which, you know, that’s pretty rare these days. It’s ancient now, right? Yeah, but I didn’t hit my physical peak until I was into my 30s.
Trevor Connor 34:07
Fred Dreyer has seen and interviewed a lot of riders who found a pathway from the US to Europe, but he sees those pathways shrinking. Let’s hear his thoughts.
Fred Dreier 34:17
The big thing that’s changed, Trevor is the bottom has completely fallen out of American Road bike racing. The Tour of California is gone, and the USA pro challenge is gone, and the tour of Utah is gone. And all the teams that used to take young, up and coming American cyclists and give them a chance to race in these events and then take them overseas to get experience racing in Europe, those teams are gone. That whole pathway of getting to the world tour just no longer exists. And so we are at this point in history where it’s like any opportunity to help fund programs to get teams and American cyclists to give them those. Development opportunities I see as being good. So in the case of this new Hincapie team, if there is going to be a team that is going to give these young cyclists an opportunity to race, but yeah, that team is being led by George Hincapie, which George Hincapie had his own pro team in the domestic peloton for years and years with Thomas Craven and that team was great. And I spoke to a lot of cyclists who went through that program, and they had very positive things to say about the racing experience and also the leadership they had there. If this new team is being backed by George Hincapie and is being funded by Lance Armstrong, but this program is going to give young American cyclists the opportunity to race overseas like I support that. I feel like where we are in American cycling right now. We need all the support and all the money we can just to get young cyclists those basic opportunities. I know that’s a long winded way of saying it, but it’s like the old way of funding these programs through sponsorship and going to some healthcare company and getting them to cough up $2 million so you can have a bike racing team, or going to an insurance company and getting them to cough up two to $5 million so you can have your team or your race like those opportunities just aren’t there anymore. So whatever opportunities are, I do feel like the sport should embrace them. I read in the teams marketing material, they’re trying to get to the Tour de France. I mean, that’s ambitious, and there’s no guarantee that’s happened. Like, how many teams over the years have we seen get stuck in that continental holding pattern for years and years? I mean, even with Optum slash human powered health. They’ve wanted to get to the Tour de France, and they just got stuck in this purgatory of like Division Two continental status, and they tried everything they could and greased the right palms and went to the right parties and did the right politicking, and they never got to the Tour de France. So there’s no guarantee that it’s actually gonna get there. Trevor, the way I think about American youth cycling development right now is like, you have Nykaa, you have all these kids getting into the sport at younger age than they used to. You know, back when you and I were, like, getting into cycling, it was like, you kind of got into it in college or afterwards. And, yeah, there were some kind of weirdo kids, like, cut into bike racing as children, and were really good and awesome, but that was not like the big bell curve. The Bell Curve was in college, and now you have the bell curve in high school. So you have all these kids getting into the sport, which is awesome, and they’re embracing bike racing, and a certain percentage of them are gonna wanna try out road bike racing, but for them, it’s like the ceiling is US Nationals and competing domestically, and then there’s no connective tissue to race overseas. You know, USA Cycling, I think, still has a development program. You know, for years and years, they had this house in easy and Belgium, and then it was in sitter the Netherlands, where you’d send the best and brightest, and they’d get some opportunities to race here and there. I know that program swells and shrinks every single year depending on funding. Some years it just goes away. Other years, it comes back. But is limited. I know that there was a model where it was like you could kind of self fund your way over there to race. But, you know, with there being a reliable bridge to get over there to race and learn actual European bike racing, which that’s what you need. You can’t just go race in the United States. You can’t do gravel racing and expect to get to the Tour de France. There’s just really limited options. And so, you know, I don’t cover the sport day to day like I used to, but I know that when I left covering it day to day in 2021 the opportunities were just really shrinking, and so I understand why the industry dollars in North America are going toward gravel events and funding gravel racers instead of funding pro road racing teams. Because, you know, it’s a lot cheaper to back a gravel racer, and you’re probably gonna get the same amount of return on your investment as you are funding an entire pro road racing team, but then there just aren’t pro road races anymore, pro stage races, the type of road races that got you those media impressions that like justified your sponsorship. And so we are at this point where those opportunities are gonna have to be, I wouldn’t say, total charity cases, but it’s gonna have to be funded in a way that isn’t just dependent on a brand getting return on its investment in terms of advertising dollars.
Trevor Connor 39:31
So we said it looks like most riders really have 10 good years in them, and I agree. I mean, I’ve talked to a lot of retired pros who said it wasn’t the racing, it was the travel. So you really have 10 good years. How do you make that work and get to the World Tour if you’re over here, spending half of those years just trying to get noticed?
Levi Leipheimer 39:52
I mean, I spent a number of years in the US, it’s domestic level, but then when you get to Europe, the World Tour level, it’s a whole new game. So I. I think there’s a flip there, where it’s it’s all fresh and new, so you get to kind of start over. And I think that that, in a sense, lengthens your career. You know, you’re not doing the same thing you were doing whatever. It’s been five years to get to that point. So I don’t know if that really affects the length of it.
Dr. Andy Pruitt 40:16
Does Money affect the length of it? I mean, how long does toddy have to work, right? I mean, he can stop now and never work again in his life.
Levi Leipheimer 40:23
I don’t think he’s the best example of that, but if we look at, you know, Mateo, for example, these days, obviously the salaries are higher. He’s making great money. But if he wants to really capitalize and set himself up for life, he should race as long as he can. And he is very meticulous. He works super hard. I think he’s gonna have a long career because he takes care of himself. I think taking care of yourself is hugely important. You’d think that that’s an automatic with professional cyclists, but it’s not. You know, a lot of them like to drink. They like to party. I was never like that. I really took care of myself. I always ate well, I slept well. I stayed in shape all year round, so that I didn’t have to put in a big effort to get back into shape, which I think was a good thing, extended my career. I didn’t race a lot. I made sure that I never raced more than 80 days a year. So if you can do all of those things, it really extends your career. And I think you know as a rider at that level, they should do all those things, because someone like Mateo is obviously making an amazing amount of money that you just can’t do anywhere else, and so you might as well try to go for longevity. That would be my advice to him, from where I sit. And
Grant Holicky 41:29
one thing I’ll throw out there about this whole conversation is talk about the risk of taking a teenager to Europe and putting them in that environment. They’re not mentally equipped to handle this. Usually, they’re not mature enough to be able to handle living on their own and doing all of these things. So while some of them make it, the ones that aren’t making it probably aren’t making it because it’s not about their legs, it’s about everything else in their life that they’re just getting thrown into the deep end with no support at an age where they do not have the capability. And I’ve said this a lot about Kiel through the years, I think you see somebody like Kiel Ryan, and what an incredibly successful career in Europe that Kiel had. And most Americans don’t know who he is, because he didn’t win any bike races, but he was a road captain on a European based team. He had a long career over there, doing his job. And I do think that’s something that American riders, I wish we had a chance for some of those guys to get to Europe to do more of is to go over there and be domestiques and be team workers, because we have some guys that really have that mentality and can just do a phenomenal job at that. Yeah,
Levi Leipheimer 42:36
you know who’s a great example of that is Larry warbas. He’s been through a lot of different teams. He’s obviously valuable. He fits in well. He’s a great teammate, because he keeps getting hired and he’s a scrapper. So that’s a really good example for the young generation to look at. Is Larry warbas, because not everybody has the talent of sep Koos or Matteo Jorgensen,
Dr. Andy Pruitt 42:57
but the peloton is full of variety of talents, you know, the all around writer, yes, you have specialists, but I think that’s a great point about Larry, is that he is valuable because he has lots of skills, right? Lots of different skills that are worth hiring.
Trevor Connor 43:11
What are the lessons that you can learn from those guys? I think it’s his personality.
Levi Leipheimer 43:15
Yeah. I mean, it comes down to mentality, right time, right place. There’s always luck involved. I had so much luck in my career, and so many people to help me out. There’s so many things out of your control, but you just have to keep working hard. If you know what you want, that’s what you want to do, and go over there and race the World Tour, that’s your target. And it directs every action you take. And you keep working hard, and you jump on every opportunity that comes, and you can make it
Dr. Andy Pruitt 43:40
work. The harder you work, the luckier you get.
Grant Holicky 43:43
Yeah, absolutely. And then some of those guys too. What I mean, what’s interesting is, we can’t forget what a level the World Tour is. It’s the best riders in the world. And there’s some of those riders that just happen to be a little bit better than the rest of them. And I remember a conversation clearly with Kiel, where he said, my resume, my interview to get signed on a world tour team, was winning, and then I signed on to a world tour team, and I never rode to win another race in my life. I changed who I was a rider. I changed everything that I had to do. You have to win to show people you’re at that level, and then you have to turn around and be willing to do whatever Job’s placed in front of you, and that’s a really tough transition. I watched that a lot with some of these kids growing up through cross, who everything they’ve done with cross is how they win themselves, and then we bring them on to a domestic road team. And I said, well, I need you to work in this stage today. I don’t really care how you do you know if you can help our our guys or our girls, and you come in 50th, three minutes back, I don’t care. Doesn’t bother me. I want the tank emptied. And that’s a tough transition. Sometimes I think that’s a tough transition mentally, because it is. As a junior sport, it’s an individual sport, right? But as an elite sport, it is the quintessential team. Sport, and that’s a sometimes tough transition for kids to make, especially American kids, I think so.
Dr. Andy Pruitt 45:07
Let’s go back to Levi’s race for a second. How do we get the people in the growler that are at the top 10% of that event? How do we get them exposure? You know, in college football, the scouts are there, right? Where are the cycling scouts? Are they watching your event and other events? Do you have any contact with those kind of folks?
Levi Leipheimer 45:26
I mean, there’s obviously UAE, for example, they have somebody that’s watching the under 23 ranks, the junior ranks, they’re paying very close attention. Those are paid scouts. But I think the traditional model of Scouting is an ex professional happens to be at a race, and they see a kid, and they can tell they know, and they can call up their ex teammate who now runs a team, and they’re like, Hey, watch this kid. In fact, you know, I like to tell the story in 2011 at the third edition of Levi’s grand fondo, there was an eight year old little kid that rode the 100 mile event. He’s a local kid, and then I retire a few years later, he’s about 14 years old, and I’m doing like a weekly criterium series there in Santa Rosa. And that little kid is growing up fast, and he’s really strong. And I remember, you know George at the time, had his previous team, and I called George, and I’m like, there’s a kid you need to watch out for, and his name’s Luke lampurdy, and you know now, obviously he’s on quick step. That’s the kind of scouting that has existed and will always exist, because someone like myself has the experience to really spot talent like that. So to go back to the fondo and this year, Marcus Shelton’s ride this year that was broadcast to the world on YouTube. That is really what drives me in organizing this event. I want that next American talent to be able to show himself at the event. I mean, nothing against Keegan, but I really was rooting for Marcus to win, because that would have just been exactly why I do this. Is to give that kid the chance to show himself, and the teams like EF legal trek, they’re going to see that. There’s no question.
Dr. Andy Pruitt 47:08
That’s the exact point I wanted you to make perfect
Trevor Connor 47:11
so you’ve brought it around full circle. And this is really, I think, the important question here. So we talked about going to Europe and taking the risk, but be far better if we could develop and identify these athletes here in North America and obviously, and this is why we brought you on the show, your event’s really helping with that, but we probably need to do more over here. So my question to all of you is, what do we need to do so that we can really help develop North American talent over here in North America, and how do we do it? How do we make this happen? And I know those are two giant questions.
Levi Leipheimer 47:48
I think we each do our part. You know, I’m organizing an event. Sounds like Grant is coaching the upcoming talent. We need all of us to do all of it. We need mentors. We need coaches. We need event organizers. We need George Hincapie organizing a team that’s hiring mainly Americans. It’s an ecosystem that has to happen, and it takes a village.
Dr. Andy Pruitt 48:10
You didn’t mention USAC in that list of things. What’s your best advice for them, really, to help us get back on track?
Levi Leipheimer 48:18
We definitely need USA Cycling sanctioned events, you know, Junior nationals, Master nationals, they absolutely have to keep doing that. That’s a stepping stone along the way. It’s inspiration for kids. It’s a goal for them to work towards. We absolutely need that. I think the best thing they can do for me and my position in the event that I’m trying to create is just cheer from afar, you know, do what they can to advocate for those kids to participate in our event and tell them, hey, we’re gonna watch on the live stream. Let’s see how you do. I mean, there’s no question that Keegan Swenson, Matt beers, Peter stetna, they’re at a high level, and if they can go there and go toe to toe with them, that’s not something to be ignored.
Grant Holicky 48:56
No. And we’ve proven that the American gravel scene, because the Europeans have come over to the American gravel scene, and there has been an assumption for a number of years that they were gonna come over and dominate, and they haven’t. They haven’t been able to come over here and just dominate that style of cycling. Totally understand it’s America. It’s a hard trip. It’s hard to live abroad, all the things we’re saying about the other direction, but we’ve proven that the guys in those scenes have legs. You know, I think one of the big things, and I’m part of USAC now, because I run the cross program, but I think one of the big things that, that I’ve always seen is cross disciplinary and riding like taking cross kids and putting them on the road, taking cross kids and putting them on the mountain bike. I love Cross for young riders, it develops skills, it develops power. And then this one’s huge for me. Where are the coaches working together? Where are the teams working together? Where are the programs working together? As as Levi said, to identify talent and say, Hey, this kid’s got some legs. Let’s get them on a road team. Let’s see what they can do. Last thing I’ll say here is the live streams are. Again, they’re huge man, right? If people could have watched some of what was going on at Hilo this year, I mean, there’s riders that would have stood out, and they would have had opportunities in terms of Europe, because they were riding at just an exceptionally high level, and we don’t get to see a lot of that.
Dr. Andy Pruitt 50:16
I think you made a great point about cross and what it can do to develop people to end up on road teams. I think the track is also a place where kids can find themselves. Got a really good example grant knows this rider, you know, he doesn’t really have the physique of a road rider, but that’s his goal. You know, he’s had some fairly good Junior results. Got to be a cat two. All of a sudden he’s out the back. And I said, you should try the track. You think about Australia, you think about Holland. You know all these great tour riders started on the track. The track is a great place for young riders to find themselves and help develop their physique as they age. So the track and cyclocross, I think both are great developmental avenues for long term racing.
Trevor Connor 51:00
My only warning there is I’ve seen coaches that get very focused on getting results with their juniors on the track and highly specialized in them. Don’t build a base. And then you see these riders say, Now I want to get out in the road. They jump in their first 200 kilometer race and they’re destroyed. That’s a coaching problem. Yeah, it doesn’t seem like the challenge is with the riders, but with Gideon events. Here’s book Walter again, talking about why it’s harder to put together races in the US,
Brent Bookwalter 51:28
living abroad in Spain, like we did for all those years, we’ve been remarking like even not just bike races, but like trail running races here over in Girona, they were a dime a dozen. Everywhere there was just there’s less barriers to put on a race at an affordable cost, which is then passed down to the participants, which then increases the prevalence, the consistency of them. America is an expensive place to do anything to do business. We’re talking about the old US pro challenge or two of Colorado that went through this incredible state of Colorado, closed down all these state highways. You know, that’s a massive undertaking, and a lot of USA hoops to jump through. That’s a lot different to doing it in the environment that we lived in Girona over in Spain, whether it’s a road race through the mountains or a trail running race, it’s big challenges to get areas closed and permits passed and yeah, complicated issue that’s many factors layered on top of each other.
Suzy Sanchez 52:25
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Trevor Connor 52:47
So we talked about the loss of sponsorship. How do we get sponsors back into the sport? Or is it what you’re saying, Levi, that’s an old school model, and the model moving forward is more of these hybrid events, where you have a race, but a whole lot of participants, so that you can fund the event, mostly through participation
Levi Leipheimer 53:06
well, and that also brings in sponsorship. And I think grant pointed out that our model is like Ironman, like lifetime, like UTMB, for example. There was just a couple of big trail running races in my neighborhood last weekend, Broken Arrow sky race. And then the western states, and I think that they have the same thing going on. They’ve got live coverage and general participation. They have the best in the world competing in the same day. And all of that is an ecosystem that brings in participation dollars as well as sponsorship dollars.
Trevor Connor 53:38
I admit I’m an old school guy. I used to love the stage races. You know, I traveled every one that I possibly could. But the more I hear about this and think about this, I really like this model, because I also think, you know, most of our listeners here are not pros. They’re not trying to go pro. They want to participate in events. And the cool thing about an event like what you put on, is it’s something you can go to, you can participate in, but you’re rubbing shoulders with the pros, and you can go and see them and potentially talk with them and watch their race. Well, you’re also doing your thing.
Levi Leipheimer 54:08
So, you know, every year I’d like to think we get a little better. We do plan on, and this kind of goes against the Gran Fondo model, but we plan on sort of highlighting age group results as well, because people, you know, they, they come to the growler, and they’re, they’re very competitive, and they’re like, hey, what about me? I’m, you know, 52 and I did a seven hour, 53 minute growler, like, I want to be on the podium. Fair enough. Let’s do it. Let’s put them on the podium. Show the finish line of those competitors as well on the live stream.
Grant Holicky 54:38
Yeah. And I think one of the things that we have to remember is that as more participation comes to events like gravel and the growler, there becomes a better base for the non endemic sponsors to come then sponsor the event. They know they have people that are going to watch this or participate in this, so therefore they come back to the table, and I think that’s one of the. Things that we have to remember as we go forward is we can’t abandon one to get the other. We have to keep them growing together. When you have an event with a big base that draws non endemic sponsors in, the non endemic sponsors come in, keep building the base, keep making sure we’ve got that participation, because that creates the longevity. I mean, running is a great example, they have great prize purses in the New York Marathon and the Boston Marathon, because they have 1000s of people doing the event, and then you have shoe companies that are willing to put money back to the pros because people are doing the event and care about how those people do.
Levi Leipheimer 55:34
Absolutely, yeah. And live streaming an event, a non sanctioned event, like the growler showcases the Keegan Swensons and the Lauren Stevens and the Marcus sheltons, to name a few of the riders, so that they can give value to their sponsors. They can get more sponsorship. It shows a team like EF, the talent that Marcus Shelton has that’s a key component to grow sponsorship, not only for our event, but for the riders participating
Dr. Andy Pruitt 56:01
in the event. It just hit me that, you know, we typically don’t sell tickets to our cycling events, which we have more spectators on the side of the road than they do in a big stadium, but we can’t sell tickets, but the mass participation, that’s like selling tickets, right? That’s how you’re getting your prize money, is with your mass participation.
Levi Leipheimer 56:17
So I want to jump in there, because this is very important to clarify, actually, our participants at the growler, they do not subsidize the prize money, not one bit. So they’re paying for traffic control, insurance, all of the things that staff that has to happen to organize the event. The prize money came from an individual who’s very passionate about cycling. His name’s farI diner. He owns a winery there in Sonoma County. He’s a tech entrepreneur, very successful. He believes in what we’re doing. He said, I want to give all this money for the pros to come, for them to earn a paycheck. So the prize money does not come from participants, but they do subsidize the race, in the sense that they have helped us build the processes and the procedures in the last 16 years, like we can control traffic, we can do 135 mile route. That’s one lap. There’s no overlap of roads, and that’s a huge undertaking, and we can do that because we’ve had practice at it. So they’re very much integral to the top end of what we’re doing with the growler, but we’re not taking their money and giving it to the pros, which I think is great. I mean, I think it’s
Dr. Andy Pruitt 57:25
important. No, thank you. That is a perfect clarification. So the participants pay for the infrastructure and your non Adamic sponsor, who’s a fan, that’s a lowly model. Thank you. That’s perfect.
Trevor Connor 57:36
And for what it’s worth, that is a fairly typical model. Is the participation entry fees make the race happen, but it’s sponsors who give the prize money. I mean, I was sponsoring cascades. I was donating to the prize money, but the more participation you have, better the event,
Grant Holicky 57:51
right? You don’t have to steal any of that sponsorship money to pay for the infrastructure. And I think that’s more what we’re seeing with a lot of races in the States right now, they don’t have that same sponsorship. They’re barely breaking even. They’re barely getting to a point. I see it with cross races all the time. They’re not able to give any prize money because they’re having to put all the participation money and some of the sponsorship money just to get the event off the ground.
Trevor Connor 58:16
I think another thing that you can potentially see from this is you talked about, you like to showcase the Masters, and you want to make a big deal of the 52 year old. And I’m 54 so this is particularly relevant to me, but the 52 year old who has a great race and that can ultimately come around and benefit you, because one of those 52 year olds might be a CEO of a company or a CFO, and go, This was fun. I really liked this. I want to sponsor this.
Levi Leipheimer 58:42
Yeah, absolutely. We have big interest now from a non endemic sponsor. And you know, it’s about bringing their top clients to the event who ride bikes, and they want to give them a great experience. They want to network with other individuals at the event. You know that just sort of starts to attract that crowd again. That’s not about having just an elite level race happening and people watching from the roadside. It’s about participation. People want to participate, and if you give them that elite level, high caliber race to watch at the same time, that’s great. You know, one of my favorite moments from the live broadcast was when Marcus Shelton crested the high point of the race on top of the geysers. There were like 100 people at the rest stop there who were doing a shorter route that were ahead of him. They were on the side of the road cheering him on as he went by with the camera motorbike. It was totally unscripted, but it was perfect. That’s exactly why it’s successful. Congratulations. That’s awesome.
Trevor Connor 59:36
So is this the model moving forward more events like the growler and stop trying to bring back the Cascades.
Levi Leipheimer 59:42
I would love other organizers to see what we’re doing and give it a go. I think that there are some events out there that are doing mass participation models, and if they can try to integrate high level race you know, give us a call. We’ll try to help you as much as we can, because we need more events the. More events we have, the better. And
Grant Holicky 1:00:01
I think that’s the key. More events, the better. We can’t lose the ones we already have. We don’t want to lose the heel. The heels are really important. Toward a balloon coming up is going to be really, really important. Those events are huge. Maybe we get a Utah or Colorado back, or something along those lines. But if we have one day raises in the states too, then we have an ability to showcase some of those kids that are one day racers. I think that’s a place that’s hard to showcase talent in the US. Time Trial is climbers. We’re good at showing that it’s hard to find those one day riders. And without the race of the hard, solid, tough one day races in the States, we need everything we can get on the calendar. I don’t think there’s one path going forward. It’s everything working together. Well, guys,
Trevor Connor 1:00:46
I hate to say it, because it was a great conversation, but we’re way over time, so we need to start wrapping this up. Levi, one other quick story I want to share with you, because I want to give you a little bit of past credit here. I still remember watching the Tour de France when you got third, and when you were on the climbs and Contador was attacking, I remember Phil Liggett saying, Levi just doesn’t have an attack. He really needs to work on that. Well, fast forward, I was at cascades with you, and we were down to a small group, and you started attacking us. And all that was going through my head is Phil Liggett, you were killing us. So I was like, Okay, maybe doesn’t have as big an attack when it’s Contador, but man,
Levi Leipheimer 1:01:33
it’s all relative. Yeah, I heard that a few times in my career. But when you’re with the best in the world and you’re hanging on, you have to find your rhythm. You have to ride your race if they attack. My tactic was to claw my way back, because, sure, you can attack for television. But I’m sorry, that’s not what I’m there for. I’m there to get to that finish line as fast as I can. Exactly.
Trevor Connor 1:01:53
That is something as a coach, something I say to athletes all the time. So I have people come to me all the time and say, I don’t have an attack. I need to work on my attack. And I go, let’s first see how hard you’re going when you’re sitting in the field, because if you’re at threshold, no, you don’t have an attack. If you’re 20 beats per minute below threshold, you have an attack, whether we work on it or not,
Levi Leipheimer 1:02:15
yeah. And when you’re when you’re in the Tour de France on the Queen stage, and you’re down to the top four riders, only one of them has an attack.
Trevor Connor 1:02:25
All right, before we wrap things up, we do have a question for our forum, and that question is, how do you feel about events like Levi’s grand fondo and George Hincapie creating a new American team looking to take American riders to the World Tour? Go to our forums@forums.fasttalklabs.com, and give us your opinion. We always appreciate them. Well, Levi, first time on the show, so the way we finish it is we go around the room and everybody has one minute to give what they think is the most important point from this whole show for our listeners to take away my takeaway. It’s probably pretty obvious from how I was doing the questioning. I admit I’m old, I’m grouchy. I want back the old days of all the big stage races. But the more I listen to this, more I go, maybe that’s not what we’re trying to do here. It is a new scene, and there is a new approach to this that could be really effective. And I think you’re right. I think some of us have probably tried too hard to bring back the old model, and the path forward is a different one. So I think that’s my takeaway. And I wish your growler all the luck and great to hear that you now have live streamed it, and you’re getting interest. And I hope it just continues to grow from there and more people jump on that model. Andy, you want to go next?
Dr. Andy Pruitt 1:03:43
Sure, first, I really applaud Levi, because I think he’s worked really hard at it and has proved successful. But to applaud all the other event organizers around the country, big and small, it is a thankless job, and we appreciate them. You know, we need races, we need volunteers, we need all those things, or we won’t have an opportunity to develop the next legion of great American riders. So I’ve done a lot of gravel races. I’ve done the big ones, I’ve done the little ones, I’ve done the USAC races. I’m actually quite encouraged about the future of USA Cycling. I think I see the number of riders in the pro tour, I see what’s happening domestically. I’m really encouraged, and I like Levi’s approach, where we’re all going to work together to get this done and be the scouts ourselves to pass on to other people who we think they might need to take a look at. So I’m encouraged and more encouraged after this discussion than I was yesterday at junior nationals.
Trevor Connor 1:04:42
Fantastic
Grant Holicky 1:04:44
grant. Well, I think one of the things we didn’t really bring up is the proliferation of junior teams. I think we see a lot more junior teams in the states now, whether that be Junior cross teams, whether that be the high school mountain bike League, the opportunities for young kids to race bikes are. Are greater when we were young, you had to go find races, you had to go work to race your bike. And I think those opportunities are there. It really is for me. Andy said it. Levi said it, how do we integrate everything that we’re doing towards that one goal of really having Americans be successful at the highest level of the sport, and that means integrating juniors of all disciplines, talking to the road people, you know, kind of recruiting amongst ourselves. And then I really do think that what project Echelon is trying to do with a small American team racing in Europe, and what Matt Pro Cycling is going to do, which is a big American team going and racing in Europe, all these things are big steps forward, and just double down on them across the board and work together and see what we can
Trevor Connor 1:05:46
get right Levi, the floor is yours.
Levi Leipheimer 1:05:48
It’s not really what we talked about, but I’m going to just distill it down to the core of I think, why we’re all here and and that is that we love the sport of cycling. We just love the feeling of being out on the bike. It’s freedom for me. It’s been the one constant my life, the only constant my life. I’d like to say it’s why I was placed here on Earth, and I feel like it saved my life at times. And I think we want to share that with other people. We want as many people to be part of the sport of cycling as possible. I think racing bikes is great. Riding bikes is great. I think e bikes are great. And we all just need to do our part to spread that joy and get new people into the sport, whether that’s through coaching, event organizing or working at a bike shop. We just need it all and so find what you love to do and and give back. I think for me, giving back and paying it forward has been what is fulfilling for me in this, all of this, like, I don’t make a penny from the Grand fondo, I’m just a volunteer. It’s my way of giving it back to all the people that helped me out in my life and to those less fortunate. So that’s my takeaway.
Trevor Connor 1:06:58
Great message and Don Thank you. That was another episode of fast talk. The thoughts and opinions expressed in fast talk are those of the individual subscribe to fast talk. Wherever prefer to find your favorite podcast, be sure to leave us a rating on a review. As always, we love your feedback. Tweet us at at fast talk labs, join the conversation@forums.fasttalklabs.com or learn from our experts@fasttalklabs.com for Levi Leipheimer, Brent Bookwalter, Fred Dreyer, Grant Halleck and Dr Andy Pruitt. I’m Trevor Connor. Thanks for listening. You.
